MONTREAL -- In Lamine Yansané's hometown of Boké in Guinea, his father is a revered imam who sometimes leads Friday prayers. But after Mr. Yansané married a Catholic woman and abandoned Islam for Christianity, his father disowned him, and Friday prayers have featured a call for his death, the Federal Court heard yesterday.
Mr. Yansané, who has been denied refugee status, is seeking a last-ditch reprieve on the grounds that he faces certain harm if he is deported from Canada. "If you return him to his country, he is going to die," Mr. Yansané's lawyer, Stewart Istvanffy, told the court. He called his client "a victim of radical Islam, who is threatened by the imam of his town, his own father." READ MORE.
Hmmm. This makes me want to open up my Muslim sources and see if Western Muslims are trying to deceive me.
Ackkk! Look what I've found!
Sahih al-Bukhari 6922—Muhammad said, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.”
Sunan Abu Dawud 4337—The Apostle said: Kill those who change their religion.
Sunan an-Nasa’i 4025—Muhammad said: "After me there will be many calamities and much evil behavior. Whoever you see splitting away from the Jama’ah or trying to create division among the Ummah of Muhammad, then kill him, for the Hand of Allah is with the Jama’ah, and the Shaitan is with the one who splits away from the Ummah, running with him."
Sunan Ibn Majah 2535—It was narrated from Ibn Abbas that the Messenger of Allah said: “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.”
Al-Muwatta of Imam Malik 36.18.15—The Messenger of Allah said, “If someone changes his religion—then strike off his head!”
But surely Islam would never command Muslims to carry out such penalties against their own relatives! Let me check the sources.
Sunan Ibn Majah 2540—It was narrated from Ubadah bin Samit that the Messenger of Allah said: “Carry out the legal punishments on relatives and strangers, and do not let the fear of blame stop you from carrying out the command of Allah.”
Whoa! It seems someone's been lying to us about what Islam teaches! But surely a religion would never allow its adherents to lie in order to protect themselves and their religion. Would it? Would it?
Death Penalty for Apostates! (Dr. Zakir Naik)
david wood said Hmmm. This makes me want to open up my Muslim sources and see if Western Muslims are trying to deceive me.
Ackkk! Look what I've found!
that is one of the funniest things ive ever heard. lol. so david do u knw which topics r being discussed?
i myself want to go on cnn and fox news and expose Islam using a speaker phone and the biggest speakers ever image that the whole world wud be able to hear including the US gov and the european gov and can gov. and who ever
Can you say "taqiyya"? The documentation doesn't lie but the proponents of the "religion" absolutely do. Yes, if he winds up outside the protection of western civil law, this man is FAR more likely to be murdered. And that's what it is: murder. And if we allow it, we may be accomplices. Islam's attacks on civil law can be stopped, must be stopped and will be stopped as God's people stand up for God's people.
No Jon on this thread? To sad... he's so foonie...
Hey Fernando. I'm here. Wouldn't want to disappoint.
Would you mind telling me your nationality? Fernando sounds like a Hispanic name, but then you said you are a former Muslim, so I'm not sure.
Here's my comment for this thread. Islam has problems. I don't deny it. I think some of the quotes here are out of context and overstating the threats to fan the flames of fear, but I'm not a big fan of Islam. What I would like to do is encourage people to first look in the mirror though before judging others. Look at the beam in your own eye before complaining about the speck in your neighbor's eye.
How many people are killed each month due to this minority interpretation of these hadith mandates to kill apostates? Let's be outrageous and say 100 people. It's a tragedy and a grave injustice. I oppose this kind of Islamic fundamentalism.
I can complain about that, and nobody involved will ever hear me because they probably don't even speak English, or I can complain about the grave injustices which occur due to my own government, which I can effect. Obama is bombing Pakistan with drones right now. He's targeting Taliban. For every one he kills he kills about 80 civilians. That's not right.
My government imposed sanctions on Iraq that killed 5000 children a month. It's easy to complain about the sins of others. The Soviets did many wicked things. So did Saddam Hussein. But shouldn't we start by putting a stop to the wrongs we are engaged in?
Iraq is a shambles right now. We invaded and the pretexts turned out to be false. We've wrecked a country for lies. A million additional Muslims are dead. Shouldn't we put a stop to this before getting all excited about this one isolated father that wants to kill his apostate son? I condemn him. He's awful. But he's not listening to me. The American government must listen to the American people. We can affect their behavior. Let's focus on what we can actually fix.
Jon said: "How many people are killed each month due to this minority interpretation of these hadith mandates to kill apostates?"
Since when does all 5 major schools of Sunni fiqh and the major Shia schools (at least for men anyway) constitute a "minority interpretation"?
I guess in Jon´s world when an overwhelming majority of Muslims believe in something that is inconvenient for his argument it becomes known as a "minority". Odd....
Well there you go, Rifqa will be totaly safe, this imam shows how islam has no compulsion for religeon. (note the intentional sarcasm)
If you can't believe and imam then who can you believe, his son leaves islam, he calls for his death according to islamic teachings.
Boy I hope Rifqa's lawers are grabbing hold of this imam's speach to take to court to show what islam says when it actualy says the truth. Then hopefuly Rifqa will be instantly whisked away to a safe house and her father deported as a terrorist and threatening murder.
Keep the light shining brightly upon satans seed, keep it from growing in the dark, Love what you guys are doing with the web site.
Peace and Love.
Jon refered to "minority interpretation"...
please... give us all a break... Jon... accept this advice: look yourself, and to your knowledge off islam, in the mirror before trying to make us do that... I was a muslim for 15 years in the Philipins (where I was born) and in Indonesis (to where I went to study in a Madrassa), so I do know whate is muslim ortodoxy... and it does NOT have a single resemblance to the westernized islam muslims want to express...
please... believe me...
you saide thate your governmente "imposed sanctions on Iraq that killed 5000 children a month"... I always love this stats trwon on the air without any proof... but I habe to recon thate if only 1 was killed, that was wrongue... no one is denying thate, butt iff you really want to «focus on what we can actually fix» one shoulde not stop denouncing tahte difference between what reall islam is (and its dangers to western civilization) and whate it pretends to be... I do not hate muslims, I only have to say thate islam is fascism (whats to impose by all means available in a specific circunstance its point off vie unto others who are always depicted as evil beings not worth living) ideology withe barbaric consequences...
no problem with Catholicism; with budhism; witha taoism or any other religion, butt islam is nott a religion: it ONLY has a tenuus religious dimention...
"Here's my comment for this thread. Islam has problems. I don't deny it. I think some of the quotes here are out of context and overstating the threats to fan the flames of fear, but I'm not a big fan of Islam. What I would like to do is encourage people to first look in the mirror though before judging others. Look at the beam in your own eye before complaining about the speck in your neighbor's eye."
Again missing the point.
Islam has this in hadiths, whom by some(many) are considered "in importance as QURAN"(check Sami Zaatari).
While in Christianity we don't have ONE serious theologian to actually preach that.
So I have nothing in my EYE(me being christians).
Hope you get it.(It's never too late.)
Islam's fruits are foul because its roots are foul.
I have yet to hear any news station drop the phony adjective "radical" when reporting on the atrocities committed by Muslims. The true Muslim "radicals" are the founders of "Muslims Against Sharia", who wish to dump more than 600 violent and incongruous ayat from their "holy" book. That's radical!
This sperm donor, now calling for the death of his offspring, is a true and faithful Muslim. His son is an apostate, and allah can't bear any competition. He fears the Cross of Christ, knowing that it sealed his defeat. What choice does allah/satan have but to destroy the rebels who interfere with the biggest single soul-feast he's ever had on our planet?
The sexual glutton, Muhammad, will be cursed by every Muslim who's died for Islam. He built Satan's most successful cult, and to accomodate him, hell has enlarged its throat and opened its mouth without measure.
If the U.S., as my wimpy senators tell me, was built on religious freedom, that disqualifies this vile death-machine from fair lodging within our borders. Islam is complete slavery, . . . too bad for our planet that it ever escaped Medina.
But there are many people that abandon Islam regularly in places like Pakistan and they establish whole different movements. Take the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community for instance. One of the pillars of Islam is that Mohammad is the last prophet. To deny that is very offensive. Well these people reject that claim, claim that in fact Ahmadiyya is the last prophet, and they live in peace and happiness. People convert to this faith regularly. This is very offensive to Sunni or Shia Muslims. There are churches throughout Pakistan, and they don't hide themselves. They live in peace and security. So if this is such a mainstream position, why aren't all of these Ahmadiyya's slaughtered?
But even if you're right and executing apostates is routine, I still say we should look at the beam in our own eyes first.
You definitly read the Ahmedyya newspapers or websites:
One entire website about persecution of ahmadyya muslims at the hands of other muslims.
Not to mention how many churches are destroyed dayly in muslim countries(including Pakistan).
Jon, if you would check your facts even from the same Wikipedia you linked, you would see that the Ahmadiyyas do not live in peace and security in Pakistan as you allege. They have been rejected by the Orthodox Muslims are are not even allowed to go on the Hajj. In 1984 their religion was declared illegal by the military ruler of Pakistan and they have faced extensive persecution. They are often the target of attacks there by Sunni fundamentalists. They were among the first Muslim groups to arrive in the West, seeking the freedom of religion absent in the Muslim world. You also seem to be ignorant of the plight of Christians in Pakistan. Just google Christians and Pakistan to see how Christians are suffering there; with homes being burnt and people being killed on false accusations. There is no freedom of thought in the Muslim world. Just look at the fighting between the Sunnis and the Shiites!
I have worked in West Africa among Muslims, and this story rings true there. I do not know of a single Muslim in West Africa who left their religion without serious consequences. Guinea especially is a difficult place for Muslim apostates. Even if the death sentence is not carried out, there are almost always serious threats. Most lose their home and financial security at least. Thankfully they are not into beheading there; they have found poisoning to be much less messy.
Finally, your comparison of American military strategies in the Middle East with death sentences for apostasy is like apples and oranges. One has to due with national security interests, the other with religious tradition.
The reaction of the American people should not be described as fear. Loathing, disgust, disbelief, outrage - yes. But fear, no. I expect that the primary "beam" in the "eyes" of the American people - from now forward - will be vigilanteism and I'm just hoping that we can prevent the "disappearance" of a number of Muslims. No "veiled" threat is intended here but not since 9/11 have I seen the American people so "riled up". Even practicing Christians, Jews and Atheists have their limits when they recognize their freedoms are threatened by a fascist ideology, such as Islam. That recognition is spreading quickly. I predict the complete extinction of Islam in the Western Hemisphere within ten years. All Mosques, all Muslim Schools, all Muslims - removed. Many Muslims will be offered the chance to leave Islam or to leave the Western Hemisphere. Many Muslims may not be so fortunate. Muslim historians may remember this time as "Islam's Great Mistake". It is ALWAYS a mistake to confuse forebearance with weakness.
Jon saide: «But even if you're right and executing apostates is routine, I still say we should look at the beam in our own eyes first»...
oh Jon.. we (at least we "non muslims") do not kill apostates... whie do you think I came to Europe? juste because my convertion to Christianity was easily accepted? oh Jon... do not habe a doubt... its you thate does nott see the Montain in your eyes...
and about Ahmadiyya... jsute see how they were, and still are being persecuted: Ahmadiyya being persecuted
or this one:
Ahmadiyya being persecuted II... how aboutt wanting to say thate black is white... wanna another chance, Jon? please: do trie your best...
Let's assume you are right and the Ahmadiyya's suffer persecution. OK. I condemn it. But they aren't being lined up and systematically executed. The hadith are backwards and immoral. I'm not arguing the point. And yes these are enforced sometimes. Just don't overstate it like there is an aggressive effort to execute apostates. They have a book from the Middle Ages that they use for moral guidance. Would that less people relied on such books.
Christians today don't kill apostates or people that attempt to persuade them to leave the faith (despite Biblical mandates to the contrary). Good. Ignore your holy book. I'm glad you do. I'll give you credit for that as well as the fact that most people ignore the blatant endorsement of slavery in the Bible.
But this doesn't change the fact that Christians have far more blood on their hands than Muslims do. We killed almost twice as many people as were killed on 9/11 every month due to the starvation campaign in Iraq. And that went on for over a decade. Fine, Fernando. It was for different reasons. It wasn't for apostasy. It was still wrong. Let's look in the mirror before pointing out the mistakes of others.
Well let's see:
"But they aren't being lined up and systematically executed. "
No officially. As far as we know there killings after killings(in the name of religion).
"Christians today don't kill apostates or people that attempt to persuade them to leave the faith (despite Biblical mandates to the contrary)".
You don't understand the Holy Bible. So don't talk if you don't know.
There is a Old Testament and a New Testament.
There are old commandments that aren't valid anymore.(And this one is included).
This commandments address different types of government: Theocracy vs Democracy. God as Judge vs God as Loving Father.
There is a CONTEXT.
While in Islam this hadiths are available.
"But this doesn't change the fact that Christians have far more blood on their hands than Muslims do. We killed almost twice as many people as were killed on 9/11 every month due to the starvation campaign in Iraq. And that went on for over a decade. Fine, Fernando. It was for different reasons. It wasn't for apostasy. It was still wrong. Let's look in the mirror before pointing out the mistakes of others."
Please make a difference between a country were christians are the majority and a christian country.
The big mistake is to associate the wars in Irak and Afganistan with Christianity and you know why ?
Because 60% of population of USA is against war. And that 60% is 80% christian.
So Christians in USA are against wars in Irak and Afganistan.
CONCLUSION: CHRISTIANITY IS AGAINST WAR.
Plus there is no command in The New Testament that tell us to go to war against other.
Jon.. you also saide: «We killed almost twice as many people as were killed on 9/11 every month due to the starvation campaign in Iraq»...
no Jon... there is no Christian "us" behind thate occupation... there are a western "us" thate is nott, bie anie means, a Chrsitian "us"... any dead that was inflicted to Iraq people is more pain inflicted into Jesus and, iff we Christians are members off His mytical body (as the bible sayes), tahte more pain inflicted unto us Chrsitians... do you understand this Jon?... no Chrsitian is behind the occupation off Irak even iff G.W.B. and others were formally called Christians... in occupatting islam, due to the separation off religion and state in the West, they were acting (eben when they were not sczyzophrenics) not due to theire Chrsitian believes rather as the rullers off wester countries thate felt thate occupating Irak was the best way to solve the problems thate existed in the Middle East... they were wrong... butt the proff that the USA and others did not want to occupie Irak was thate they neber thought aboutte a strategy for the lonbger time... theu wanted to take Sddam out off power and give the power to the Irakians and get outt off there... the dead you are always talking aboout WERE NOT DUE TO THE ACTIONS OF THE WESTERN COUNTRIE RATHER TO THE VIOLENT TERRORIST ACTIONS OFF THOSE WHO; IN THE NAME OFF "LIBERATING" IRAK, WERE KILLING THEMSELFS UNTO THE GROUNDE: XIIA ANGAIST SUNNI, SUNNI AGAINST XIIA, SUNNI AGAINS CURDS, XIIA AGINST CURS, ALL OFF THOSE AGINST CHRISTIANS... Jon... don't play the fool arounde... you're cleaver than thate...
Jon.. you also saide: «It was still wrong»...
the taking off Saddam out off power was not wrong... even iff the reaons presented to do so were... yes... any dead inflicted was wrong, butt do nott think it was made bie Christians ore due to Christian principles... thates the difference to msulims terrorist actions: thay are done ib accordance to theire religios believes...
Jon... what's the problem withe you and mirrors? you saide: «Let's look in the mirror before pointing out the mistakes of others»…
there are no comparison… the violence thate still exists in the worlde due to the actions off western countries is nott made due to Chrsitian believes; the violence made bie muslims are made due to Islamic believes…
you saide: «But they aren't being lined up and systematically executed»...
your mising the point... we are talking aboutt apostasy... nowadays there are no "conversions" from sialm to this islamic sect... thats whie they are nott being killed... they are treated as any other non muslim living in any islamic countrie: they are given 3 options: convertion; accepting a degradating 2nd state status (which are whate they are accepting in order to live); or die...
you saide: «The hadith are backwards and immoral»...
not only the hadiths butt also the quranic text...
you saide: «Christians today don't kill apostates or people that attempt to persuade them to leave the faith (despite Biblical mandates to the contrary). Good. Ignore your holy book»...
Jon, Jon... ounce again: can you present a SINGLE evidence thate the descriptive, culktural and subbordinated text off the OT are prescriptive? And whate aboutte the diffrence between tje old convenant and the new conveneant? We Christians do not ignore whate is in the Bible, butt in Christ we have, as you know, the NEW and ETERNAL Torah thate is the only normative code off conduct... sorry to say this Jon, butt you're so away from the truth thate iff the truth was the Sun you would not eben made the samallest shadow...
Jon.. you also saide: «But this doesn't change the fact that Christians have far more blood on their hands than Muslims do»...
Jon... whate are you speaking aboutt? are you saying thate in history Christians killed more people than islam? just a "small" number to you: during the 500 years islam occupied India, there was more than 80.000.000 non muslims killed only due to the fact they did nott accepted islam... in average there was more killed person per day in that time in India than in one year off Chrsitian "occupation" off all other country in History...
more: are you sying thate the American army is a Christian army? is thate whate you're saying? are you really pretending to say thate? No its not... the fact there are christians in the army does not make that army a Christian one as this one is nott orientated bie Christian principles...
more: iff a "christian" killes anyone he's nott following the words and deeds off Jesus; butt iff a muslim kills any other people he may, definitally, following the mandates oiff muhammad and the qur'an...
(end off Part 1)
Fernando made the comment that from 1000 to 1500 the population in INDIA decreased by 80 MILLION.I know that in 1580 it was 140 MILLION,so you can say it went down from about 200 MILLION in 1000 AD.
MAHMOUD of GHAZNA invaded India like 17X on expeditions from Afghanistan,destroying alot of Hindu temples and oncetime taking 50,000 HINDUS as slaves back home,both men and women(the women as sex-slaves).He also brought back alot of booty.This was in the years around 1000 AD.
He was a great PERSIAN poet who wrote THE BOOK OF KINGS,about the Persian monarchs.He went to the court of MAHMOUD who promised to pay him 1 GOLD COIN for every verse he wrote.His work went to 60 THOUSAND verses,the second longest poem in literature,after the MAHABHARATA(100,000 verses).The ILIAD has like 10X less verses than the Mahabharata.
But later Mahmoud repented of his promise and paid him 1 SILVER COIN per verse,which embittered Firdawsi alot,who left.It is said Mahmoud later repented and decided to pay him in gold but it was too late,Firdawsi had died.So people are complicated,but one thing is sure,for Mahmoud his destruction of India was a JIHAD,a holy war.He did it INSPIRED by Islam.
We later have TAMERLANE (1336-1405)who was descended from GENGHIS KHAN,and who was a devout Muslim,raid INDIA several times.He was LAME also.He wrote his MEMOIRS where he tells us of when he captured DELHI and had 100,000 HINDU captives.He says there that because they were infidels he decided to KILL them all.He did and made a PYRAMID of 100,000 skulls.They are his own words.
He is the subject of a poem by EDGAR ALLAN POE,the great American writer(author of THE RAVEN) and MARLOWE,the first great English dramatist,who also wrote the famous DOCTOR FAUSTUS,his masterpiece.
I want to comment on an affirmation heard many times:"Why do the Palestinians have to pay for the sins of the West,they did the Holocaust."
GRAND MUFTI OF JERUSALEM
As I said before the Palestinian's supreme leader was an ALLY of Hitler,who participated in the Holocaust.So Muslims who think MUSLIM LEADERS are INNOCENT of participation are wrong.
First of all it was the WEST that ENDED the Holocaust by destroying Germany(US,UK and Soviet Union).
ALLIES OF THE NAZIS
They were Spain,Italy,Romania,Hungary and Bulgaria,plus Croatia and Slovakia,plus Vichy France.
Most of them RESISTED turning in their Jews to the Germans.They knew they would be killed.How does THAT contrast with the behaviour of the Grand Mufti?
ITALY:it had 60,000 Jews.Mussolini was against deportation of them.It was ONLY in 1944 when Italy was CONQUERED MILITARILY by the Germans that 8,000 Jews were deported and killed.It was the Germans,not the Italians,who did it.
SPAIN:In 1931 it passed a law making the descendants of the 150,000 Sephardic Jews expelled in 1492 as having the right to automatic Spanish citizenship,like they do to Israeli citizenship.
FRANCO,the dictator of Spain,and ALLY of Hitler,never changed it and any Jew who reached Spain,of any nationality,was safe.
HUNGARY:it had 800,000 Jews.It resisted deportation.It was ONLY in 1944 when it was CONQUERED MILITARILY by the Germans that the Jews were killed.400,000 were deported to Auschwitz.
BULGARIA:another ally,the King of Bulgaria was against killing the Jews.There were 50,000 and they were never touched.DANIEL ZION,one of the chief rabbis of Bulgaria,and a believer in Jesus,told the king not to.In the end,Bulgaria had more Jews in 1945 than in 1939.
They resisted deporting Jews also,and most of those killed were foreign Jews.They resisted as long as they could but MOST of the Jews in France survived.
I don't say there was NOT a rampant Judeophobia in the West,there was,but except for the form it took in Germany,it was not enough to make people accept killing all the Jews.
I heard someone mention 9/11
It was so blatently an inside job.
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