Tuesday, August 18, 2009

James White vs. Abdullah Kunde: "The New Testament or the Qur'an?"

30 comments:

The Fat Man said...

This was a good discussion. It really shows the contrast between a God centered beliefe i.e. Christianity and a Man centered "What can I do" beleif i.e. Islam.

Notice the muslim continues to ask the questions "What can I do?".

I loved Dr Whites, response "Christianity is a love based faith... We do things out of love for God not out of fear."

Clarence said...

Christianity rules by love while Islam rules by fear

Spencer said...

David,

Perhaps your email isn't working -- I've been trying to contact you. Let me know if you accept my debate proposal.

Ehteshaam Gulam said...

"Christianity rules by love while Islam rules by fear"

Umm no. Muslims Love Allah, and Allah loves Muslims see the Quran verses 2:222, 2:195, 3:176, 3:134, 3:146,3:148, 3:159, 5:42, 5:54, 5:93, 9:4, 9:7, 9:108, 19:96. Allah loves those who do good and who are Muslims.

Also according to the famous hadith

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "When Allah completed the creation, He wrote in His Book which is with Him on His Throne, "My Mercy overpowers My Anger." (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 416)

Also is Christianity and Jesus all loving? I don't think so. See Matthew 7:13-14-- Jesus says that most people will go to hell. He seems to be OK with that.

Also according to John 3:36-- God the Father wrath is on all unbelievers.

Read the Gospel of John. Its filled with Anti-Semitism for example see John 8:44.

With Kind Regards,
Ehteshaam Gulam
http://www.answering-christian-claims.com

The Fat Man said...

I was listing to the debate again while walking my dog. The muslim says "Job was pateint with GOD" he says it a few times in his rebuttle.
Think about the implicatoins of that statement. Job was Patient with GOD. Amazing the man centric belief this guy has.

He also says about christian beliefe words the affect of "Ok someone died for my sins, but WHAT CAN I DO?"

Sepher Shalom said...

Ehteshaam said: "Read the Gospel of John. Its filled with Anti-Semitism for example see John 8:44."

This seems like a very off topic comment, but nevertheless...Do you really expect people to believe that John [Yochanan in Hebrew], who was a Semite and a Jew, wrote an antisemitic work? Please get real Ehteshaam. Let's look at the verse:

John 8:44 - You belong to your father the devil, and you want to carry out the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and has never stood for truth, since there is no truth in him. Whenever he tells a lie he speaks in character, because he is a liar and the father of lies.

Yeshua said some specific people were metaphorically "children of the devil" due to lying murderous intentions. Where is the antisemitism in that? He never says they are of the devil because they are Jews. Far from it. He says they are of the devil because of the desires of their heart.

Was the prophet Isaiah antisemitic?:

Isaiah 1:4 - Ah, sinful nation, a people loaded with guilt, a brood of evildoers, children given to corruption! They have forsaken the LORD; they have spurned the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on him.

That is much much tougher language than John 8:44, and it actually contains a corporate accusation against the nation of Israel [whereas John does not]. For some reason no one ever says the Jew name Yeshayahu [Isaiah] was an antisemite, but some throw the accusation against the Jew named Yochanan [John], or the Jew named Yeshua [Jesus]. Please think a little more deeply before you make these kinds of accusations Ehteshaam.

Sepher Shalom said...

Ehteshaam said: ""Christianity rules by love while Islam rules by fear"

Umm no. Muslims Love Allah, and Allah loves Muslims see the Quran verses..."


I don't see any way in which you can say the dynamics of the love-relationship between G-d and humanity is even comparable between the Quran and the Bible. A very brief demonstration - We look at the Bible and we find:

Romans 5:8 - But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Now, simply choosing your first example from the Quran, we see:

2:222 (Y. Ali) They ask thee concerning women's courses. Say: They are a hurt and a pollution: So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by Allah. For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean.

Notice the difference Ehteshaam? Our Bible tells us that even while we were sinners our L-rd died for us. Your Quran tells you that first you have to make yourself acceptable to Allah, then he loves you, based on your actions. Big big difference.

My G-d loves me because of who He is and what He did. Your god seems to love you based on who you are and what you do.

Sepher Shalom said...

Ehteshaam said: "Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "When Allah completed the creation, He wrote in His Book which is with Him on His Throne, "My Mercy overpowers My Anger." (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 416)"

Interestingly, it seems that Allah's mercy also overpowers his justice, since he reserves the right to arbitrarily admit people into heaven or hell, and he allows sin to go unpunished.

Ari said...

An interesting debate. Kunde's arguments were - well, so left field. Dr White did a great job - more so presenting the gospel in its fullness as opposed to a debate. But I guess that is why the New Testament is a guide to life - through its testimony of Jesus we can be saved; a far more convincing argument than eating pomegranates to not be obese.

David and Nabeel - are you guys planning on coming downunder anytime soon?

David Wood said...

No plans yet. But we're willing. (I think I'd like to debate Kunde on the Argument from Scientific Accuracy.)

Fernando said...

Y saw this video in AO blogg... I liked itt bery much... Doctor James Whitte presented a good thesis, even when I have some daoubts on some aspects off his presentation (for example: why did Job saide he woulde retract his words...)... Abdullah Kunda semmed, on the other hand, less prepared in all aspects, butt I liked his straighfoward and "peacefull" aspect (quite different, for example, from whate did Yahya Seymour in his debatte withe Professor Wood)... A bery interesting debatte...

finaly: Professor Wood, may I ask you a question? Are you, and Doctor Nabeel, tnhinking in writting a book on Christian and/or muslim themes? I know thate "secret" is the "soul" off business, butt nevertheless I ask you thius question... butt no answer is needed iff you think it's not adequate to give one... God bless...

Nakdimon said...

Esteshaam,

I have been noticing something about you. When you first came to this blog, you seemed like a sincere man, willing to learn from others and willing to accept correction. You seemed like someone that was willing to examine things when people pointed out errors in your argumentation. But lately your arguments have become extremely poor, I would say kind of Osama-Abdallah-ish. You have no interest in accepting correction, you borrow left and right from anyone that says anything against the Bible, no matter how utterly hopeless those arguments are. Your arguments reflect the very bad arguments of atheists, Jewish anti-missionaries and JWs.

Maybe I can give you one small point of advice. When I deal with either Rabbinic Judaism or Islam, when I either look at arguments of others or come up with arguments of my own, I play advocate of the devil and place myself in the shoe of the Muslim or the rabbinic Jew. I challenge my own arguments (or of those I read) to the best of my ability and try to refute the objection. If I can refute it myself, I will never raise that argument against either Rabbinic Judaism or Islam. If I can’t refute it myself, I use the argument. This doesn’t mean that all the arguments that I can’t refute are rock solid arguments, because my knowledge of their position might not be as good as those who are able to point out the holes in my objection. But it prevents you from making such utter blunders that you have been making regularly over the past months now. And when the other side convinces me of the weakness of my argument, I just drop the argument and don’t use it again. But it seems that you don’t take correction, no matter how clear the weaknesses in your arguments are pointed out. Maybe you should consider that strategy sometimes, since not doing so is making you look like someone that is in it for the sole purpose or arguing with others and not to seek the facts and draw conclusions based on those facts.


Nakdimon

Fernando said...

@ Young Ehteshaam Gulam...

glade to see you back arounde here... you're becoming the "yo-yo" blogger... to sad thate you only apeear to come here to place some incoherent sentences and do nott interact whem we presentte why you're wrong... to sad... let's try to change this?

#1: iff someone ONLY loves the one who loves him, thates nott love: thates an sublime form off egoism, narcisism and despotism...

#2: abouutt Matthew 7:13-14... Jesus is makking a warnning saying to people: take notice: do nott think thate salvation is granted whatever you do... one mustt follow the small path (thate is Jesus) and nott any other one more easier thate onw might wantt... He eben may bee saying this withe sorrow... He's constacting a realitty: men do prefer an self-centered path to salvation (likke muhammedism) than one the gratuity (accepted and given) is the core...

#3: aboutt John 3:36... Young Ehteshaam Gulam... do you know whate is the "wrath" of God in the Bible? Is, preciselly, the expression off thate divin sorrow... as a father is angry in his heartt because he sees his beloved sons choosing to follow a different path to him... itt does nott say, the text, thate thate "wrath" is "actting" uppon those who choose nott to follow Jesus, rather they, due to theirs options, attract uppon them, as a cloud thate is a constant menace, thate loving wrath... do you now the difference between an "hatting wrath" and a "loving wrath"? the first one is centered in expressing the self-feelings off the one who feels the hatte off being ofeended (likke in muhammedism); the other one is centered in whate too do too rectify the vital options off the one who offended (likke in the Bible)... the difference in tremendous...

May the Holy Trinity give you the light to see the truth...

Osama Abdallah said...

"No plans yet. But we're willing. (I think I'd like to debate Kunde on the Argument from Scientific Accuracy.)"

I've debated David Wood on "Does the Quran have Scientific Miracles in It?" The debate can be downloaded at:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran_miracles_debate_osama_abdallah_vs_david_wood.wmv


Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

EG said:

Allah loves those who do good and who are Muslims.

I respond:


You are correct and this is the core difference in the ethics of our two faiths.

Yahweh loves all men and our good works are mearly an outworking of that love in and through us. Do you see the difference?

quote:

So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.
(1 John 4:16-21)

peace

Ehteshaam Gulam said...

Nakdimon said:

I have been noticing something about you. When you first came to this blog, you seemed like a sincere man, willing to learn from others and willing to accept correction. You seemed like someone that was willing to examine things when people pointed out errors in your argumentation. But lately your arguments have become extremely poor, I would say kind of Osama-Abdallah-ish. You have no interest in accepting correction, you borrow left and right from anyone that says anything against the Bible, no matter how utterly hopeless those arguments are.

My Response: I still willing to listen to what Christians have to say. And No I am not at the level of Osama Abdullah. I use the best scholarship and arguements possible--regardless of whether they are Atheist, Jewish, Muslim, etc. I think I am much above Osama Abdullah. But you along with 99% of the commentators here have failed to prove what you believe-- to least me. Nakidimon I can say the same about your arguements for Christianity-- it doesn't really impress me, neither does Semper Shalom, etc.

This is the thing with Christian apologists. Whenever I bring up for example: the Pagan god Innana (1500 BCE) who was crucified and resurrected-- the Christian goes-- No she was put up on a hook-- No she wasn't human-- No her story is different from Jesus story--. I mean this is just silly. The fact is that she was crucified and resurrected. Then Christians bring up alleged pagan practices in Islam-- but anyone who knows anything about Islam knows Islam rejects paganism and the Pre-Islaimic Arabs were following their forefather Abraham when he ran around the kabba, kissed the black stone, etc.

What I suggest the commentators of this site do is this-- stop seeing through the eyes of emotion-- and start using logic and common sense and evidences for your beliefs. No Christian apologist does this-- no Christian has ever provided good evidence for me to believe in their faith-- the only Christian apologist that I can think of who is close to presenting evidence for his beliefs-- is William Lane Craig-- but his material can easily be refuted.

I am trying to use evidence, logic, common sense, etc. What your using is appeal to emotion, etc. Whenever something bad is said about Christianity by me or someone else--- the Christian person immediately starts attacking me or some other Muslim here personally or brings up Islam. No problem, we can talk about Islam-- but when we are talking about Christianity-- lets stay on topic. And we're talking about Islam--let's stay on topic.

Know what I mean? If get too emotional when talking about Religion-- Then I am not interested in discussing it with you. But if your willing to listen to what I have to say-- then I'll listen to what you have to say.

Thanks
Ehteshaam Gulam
http://www.answering-christian-claims.com

minoria said...

Ehteshaam:

I don't realy think you will ever be convinced regarding Christianity,but you say you will accept only what is most logical and with the best evidence,correct?

In my arguments I had often begun with the position that Christianity was false (as you believe it is)and to see if using logic and evidence(and that is what want)Islam could be shown to be reasonably true.

ARGUMENT OF PARALLELISM

You have stated the Inanna story again.I had before pointed to the parallelism of MANI's career and ideas and Mohammed:seal of the prophets,angel gave him a message,proclamation that he was the Paraclete,even wordly success(for a while he had the full support of the Persian king,till another came).

CONCLUSION

So what can be established is merely parallelism.But parallelism is not enough to establish if that invalidates a religion's claim or not.You would agree to that?

ERROR IN THE KORAN

Again,beginning with Christianity as false. You have said you accept the best evidence from all sources.Now RICHARD CARRIER knows koine Greek,that of the NT.HE would the first to agree with me that the way the Greek in the NT is expressed it 100% excludes the possibility of the Paraclete passages referring to Mohammed.Any Greek scholar of any persuasion would say the same.You have to accept their conclusion.

That means the Koran has an error.It can't be from God.

AGAIN THE SAMARITAN ERROR

I have given you the reasons why trying to explain away that error in the Koran,based on logic,reason and evidence(and that is what you want and accept)is totally unconvincing.

AGAIN

That does not prove Christianity is true,and as I said before you will never be convinced,but it does prove to any impartial,logical,reasonable person who demans evidence(and that is your standard,my friend) that the Koran has falsities,and so by logic,Islam is not true.

APPLY THE SAME RULES FOR THE CLAIMS OF THE KORAN

You have heard most of the arguments in favor of Christianity and they haven't convinced you,nor ever will,but you are not applying the same standard in your evaluation of the claims of Islam.

Fernando said...

brother minoria... habe you read the comment I pu in the thread off the video from MSNBC to our good friend Mike about Young Ehteshaam Gulam? I'll resume my pointes here:

1) Young Ehteshaam Gulam is nott interested in makking an dialogue;

2) Young Ehteshaam Gulam is nott interested in logical thinking;

3) Young Ehteshaam Gulam is nott interested in the truth;

4) Young Ehteshaam Gulam is nott interested in aplying the arguments he uses attacking Christianity to muhammedism...

5) Young Ehteshaam Gulam is only interested in makking propaganda and insultting Christians with his tactic off spitting somme wordes and running away;

6) Young Ehteshaam Gulam is only interested in promotting himself in order to became famous and do a leabing out off debates

so... we see a pattern here, don't we? and how shoulde we deal withe a person like this? I suppose the better way is to do as professor Wood is doing... ain't this the true?

Fernando said...

Oh man... how sick can someone bee: «The fact is that Innana was crucified and resurrected»... Young Ehteshaam Gulam... please: one source for this statement! ONE, ONLY ONE!!!... can you presentt here the text thate says so? Please: juste ONE!... and then you say we are being silly!

We express you, and others, a list off HISTORICAL proves and evidences, expressed in archeological and different textual evidences, thate muslims arounde the kabba do follow pagan practices and you omme withe the MITH expressed in the qur'an thate the pagans were following Abraham... and then you say we are being silly!

Young Ehteshaam Gulam: here are youre own wordes: «start using logic and common sense and evidences for your beliefs»... butt you do nott thate: you ignore HISTORICAL proves and evidences and choose to follow the MITHS expressed in the qur'an and hadiths... and then you say we are being silly!

more: using youre own words: «lets stay on topic»... just finne... whate habe this tantrum off yours to do withe "James White vs. Abdullah Kunde: "The New Testament or the Qur'an?"... and then you say we are being silly!

you saide: «I'll listen to what you have to say»... no you do nott Young Ehteshaam Gulam: you keep on repetting the same old errors ounce, and twice, and 1000 times... and when we present ebidences to you you juste say we are being silly... loool...

The Fat Man said...

Ethshaam on the wrath of GOD and Gods Just Judgment

John 12:47-48
47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

Notice the word that people reject will judge you.

The Fat Man said...

I was listing to NPR radio this morning. They had a story on the Kilogram, and the cylindar in France that is the standard for all Kilograms. It got me thinking of the muslim arguments that the quran is a guidance and light.

To my knowlege the Quran does not have any ordances on a standard for weights and mesures.

The Quran has no laws or ordances on agriculture.

Both these things are in the bible. Both these things are very very important for any civilization.

Haecceitas said...

Ehteshaam,

I think I asked about this in some previous blog thread but didn't see a reply (or perhaps you replied after I didn't check back anymore).

Since you speak about using the best scholarship, regardless of the scholars' worldview, can you please name 3 books by Christian scholars that you think representst the best Christian scholarship that you're acquainted with?

Fernando said...

Sorry... I wrotte "spittink" when referring to Ehteshaam Not bthe Young Gulam... I meant, obviously, "spilling"...

taylorderrick said...

Did anyone else notice that after establishing Matt. 28:18-20 (“The Great Commision“) as the basis for his presentation, Dr. White never once quoted Jesus, despite the clear instructions he had just established.

“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,… and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.”

Fernando said...

@ taylorderrick...

yes, I notticed thate... it's bery commun in Doctor James White's presentations... he, as a good protestant (calvinist), centeres himselff in Paul's workes and readas the entire NT att the light off these...

taylorderrick said...

@ Fernando,

Fair enough… and I have no problem with him doing that. However, as was pointed out in the discussion, he didn’t even rely on the New Testament for his rebuttals.

It just seems odd to me that he would base his presentation on the “Great Commission” and then completely ignore any commandments from Jesus.

Personally, “The Sermon on the Mount” has, and will continue, to serve as "Guidance and Light" for my life.

Dr. White seemed more concerned with establishing the deity of Jesus, in lieu of the announced topic.

For me, this particular presentation re-enforces the old saying, “Christianity has become a religion about Jesus, not necessarily the religion of Jesus”

God Bless

Fernando said...

@ taylorderrick......

yes, I undestand absoluttely whate you mean... the “The Sermon on the Mount” is absoluttely essential to Chrstianitty... the "Beatitudes" are eben one off the moste special ways Jesus choose to present who he was... withe thate I'm tottaly withe you... and yes: I also agree thate Christianity as the danger off being too centered in wahte we say aboutte Jesus rather in Jesus' teachings...

butt I guess this was this way in this presentation off Doctor White due to its peculliar nature... islam denies almost everything thate is nuclear to Christianity, so I guess Doctor White had to chosse to do so... butt I guess you woulde agree thet the better we undestand who was Jesus, the more we understand His massage...

for instance: while I was a muslim I dispised the “The Sermon on the Mount” because I did nott knew well who was Jesus... how coulde He present a message thate was latter denied by muhammad, the perfect prophet of God? only when my heart oppened (also through Jesus wordes... butt also withe the example off some true amaizing Christians...) and I re.recognized Him as my God I started to grasp the deepest meaning off His words...

god bless to you also, down under I recon...

AKunde said...

I am very interested to read some of the comments regarding the debate.

It's great to see such discussion!

Cwradio73 said...

Another interesting debate. Man no matter where he is from wants to bring about his own redemption. When statements are made about the curse of the Law they generally take it wrongly. God demands complete obediience to his word. We cannot keep it. Man fell so far from a lofty position of righteousness, to the lowly state that has caused death to fall on us.

Only when one is in Christ, baptized into his death, birthed by the Holy Spiri, can one really live for an know God. Another point that seems to not be understood about Law is that once one is in Christ by new birth, the Holy Spirits writes the Law on our hearts an I no longer want to continue in sin.
This is so sad to listen to at times because men want to go about establishing their own righteousness.

alphacentiari planets said...

I stumbled upon this blog by accident. And found it to be quite exciting, that I actually read everything & even watched some of the videos twice. Here I am, who would've guessed, six hours later be making a commenting. The question that I had in mind originally that landed me here was: I wanted to know who are the people that straps themselves with bombs & explosives and blows up women & children or anyone else close by. Most nights I can't sleep when these matters occupied my mind. Then when I read about the children who are being used to strap the bombs also, it literary breaks my heart. Then came the chilly part, I not only found out who was behind it but why. The book of Koran is the devil's book. Why would God or Allah preferred one race over another, and then the violence & hatred that goes with those that are not the same as us. All the killings hasn't stopped, it merely changed forms. Now they disguised themselves with masks & explosives, detonating their lives and anyone else away. Please, it's getting old. This is the 21st century. All of you are my brothers & sisters. If we go back far enough, there was a time when you & I had the same mother & father. All the violence has not gotten us any closer over the centuries. And I've only got 70-80 years to lived, a brink of an eye in cosmic time, just enough to glance the beautiful surroundings & it's journey through space. I'm tired brother, no more fighting, peace to all!