Monday, May 11, 2009

Saudi judge: It's OK to slap spendthrift wives

(CNN) -- Husbands are allowed to slap their wives if they spend lavishly, a Saudi judge said recently during a seminar on domestic violence, Saudi media reported Sunday.

Arab News, a Saudi English-language daily newspaper based in Riyadh, reported that Judge Hamad Al-Razine said that "if a person gives SR 1,200 [$320] to his wife and she spends 900 riyals [$240] to purchase an abaya [the black cover that women in Saudi Arabia must wear] from a brand shop and if her husband slaps her on the face as a reaction to her action, she deserves that punishment."

. . . Saudi women's rights activist Wajeha Al-Huwaider told CNN that Saudi women routinely face such attitudes.

"This is how men in Saudi Arabia see women," she said in a telephone interview from the Saudi city of Dahran. "It's not something they read in a book or learned from a friend. They've been raised to see women this way, that they're less than a person."

Read More from CNN.
Read More from Answering Muslims.

46 comments:

Fernando said...

Nooooo!!! another misinformed person... why can't they just understand that islam is not this?

And whate aboute the lattest debates? I'm almost dyieng with anxiety...

vijay said...

david n nabeel

any news on the debates?

how did they go about?

Bartimaeus said...

Slap my trusty Quran translated by Pickthall say scourge (ie beat the hell of them. How often to these "slaps" lead to death? Just recently in Buffalo a Muslim man was charged with murder because whe wanted a divorce. But we are told time and time again this is not Islam. Sorry guys I aint buying this woman are equal in Islam bunk.

faktb said...

Actually, is the Saudi judge ruling against the Quran? What happened to the first two steps? 1. Admonish; 2. Banish to beds.

4:34
Those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and BEAT them.

What happens in the case of a spendthrift husband? Nothing.

This shows that Islam is a chauvanistic, sexist religion.

Honestly Muslims, If you were not born into this religion, and if you were approaching the ideals of Islam freshly for the very first time, then would you sincerely choose to become an adherent?

Please view this question as openly and honestly as possible. Thanks.

Sepher Shalom said...

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives as the Messiah loved the church and gave himself for it, 26 so that he might make it holy by cleansing it, washing it with water and the word, 27 and might present the church to himself in all its glory, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind, but holy and without fault. 28 In the same way, husbands must love their wives as they love their own bodies. A man who loves his wife loves himself.Those Saudis need the Gospel so they can come into a right relationship with their wives.

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Vijay--

Check out the new post. I think they went very well :-)

Royal Son said...

Sepher Shalom said:
"Those Saudis need the Gospel so they can come into a right relationship with their wives."

Not to mention a proper relationship with the one true God.

Ali said...

you know this i sgetting kind of tiring. I know you all know we muslims have refuted these in the past, so why bring it up? Also on the home page og this site, some islamic sites are given. They also refute many things so why bring them up?

Ali said...

you know this is getting boring. All of the so called mis-treatment of wowmen and this and that. Muslims in the past and currently refute this so why bring it up? Those islam sites on the front page also refute this so why bring it up?

Ali said...

//Those Saudis need the Gospel so they can come into a right relationship with their wives.//

Actually if you read articles written by muslims on saudi arabia they'd say they need a quran so they can come back to islam. And i'm pretty sure most of you would agree.

Royal Son said...

"Actually if you read articles written by muslims on saudi arabia they'd say they need a quran so they can come back to islam. And i'm pretty sure most of you would agree."

Yes Ali, you're absolutely right. Everyone at answeringmuslims.com agree that Saudis should flock back to Islam.

Ali said...

So are you saying royal son Saudi arabia is an absolute PERFECT example of islam? I dont think so.find me a verse or hadith that says women cant ride camels (driving then). where in the quran or hadith does it say women can't play sports? and where does it say women cant choose their husbands? shall i countinue?

anyways check this out:
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1123996016760

Ali said...

From the article:

Al-Huwaider added that "I'm not surprised to see a judge or a religious man saying that - they've been raised in the same CULTURE - a CULTURE that tells them it's ok to raise your hand to a woman that this works."

IslamSINS said...

See? If Muslim men were in tune with their 10th class-citizen wives, they would develop a "fear" of their shopping sprees and scourge them before they got a chance to blow his money. 4.34 says if they "fear" disobedience, so these numskulls need to act on their "fears" before their donkeys get the opportunity to shop!

Why do I, a non-Muslim, see the root of the problem better than a cleric? I think mayhap, I should offer my services to the corrupt Sauds, to write their fatwas for them. My first (and probably last, just prior to my beheading), would be to abandon the lunacy of Muhammad's teachings and come to Christ, the Way, the Truth, the Life, and the only pathway to heaven.

*fluffs hair*

Ali said...

//See? If Muslim men were in tune with their 10th class-citizen wives, they would develop a "fear" of their shopping sprees and scourge them before they got a chance to blow his money. 4.34 says if they "fear" disobedience, so these numskulls need to act on their "fears" before their donkeys get the opportunity to shop!//

I took care of this. read the link i posted.

//My first (and probably last, just prior to my beheading), would be to abandon the lunacy of Muhammad's teachings and come to Christ, the Way, the Truth, the Life, and the only pathway to heaven.//

I see so when jesus said dont hurt others, and love your enemies, do you think your a good example of a christian if you insult my religion? Is this your way of representing the truth??

IslamSINS said...

Ali, think of my attitude as Christ cleaning the Temple of the corrupt filth in the courtyard. I'm not, in the case of Islam, trying to give a Sermon on the Mount. You demean my Lord, you lie about his crucifixion, so I guess I view the lies of Islam with a very jaundiced eye (and an emesis basin within reach).

Did I lie about 4.34? Does your Koran teach you that I, an unbeliever, am "najis"? That you're to fight me until I submit, or "willingly" be subdued and humiliated, paying the Jizya to keep you from killing me? How does one "willingly" be humiliated, by the by?

Islam demeans women, little girls are used as currency in the M.E., being sold to some old Muslim male to settle a family debt. Eight year old babies have marched into courts asking for divorces. Women are on the level of dogs, donkeys, and they interrupt your prayer if they pass in front of you.

Islam has historically lived off the intellectual capital of their host countries; Islam is a parasite.

Muslims demand respect without extending it to others.

Islam dishonors the God of Israel, and substitutes a pagan god from their kaaba. Islam denies the Son, and everything He teaches. You have a false messenger so pathologically demented, he claims that "allah" created the world for him ("You should Know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle" Bukhari 85.77)

You must obey "allah and his apostle" making Muhammad allah's partner, yet you deny his shirk.

Jesus didn't hesitate to confront the false teachers of His day, and He called them a pit of vipers. He warned against the false prophets who would come (that's how Muhammad is mentioned in Scripture).

You serve a messenger so violent, he slaughtered his way through the M.E. You are to fight me and the entire Dar al Harb until none but your pagan god is worshiped.

I guess, yes, Islam makes me cranky. Maybe it's the "honor killings", or the deception, or the hatred contained in your books. Take your pick. I never gave Islam a thought until 9/11. I wish I'd never had a reason to begin studying your texts. I wish I could go back to my blissful ignorance. I can't. Deal with it.

Ali said...

//Ali, think of my attitude as Christ cleaning the Temple of the corrupt filth in the courtyard. I'm not, in the case of Islam, trying to give a Sermon on the Mount. You demean my Lord, you lie about his crucifixion, so I guess I view the lies of Islam with a very jaundiced eye (and an emesis basin within reach).//

I still dont see how Jesus would insult other faiths. So i guess Judaism, your sister faith, also lies about crucifiction and the divinity of him.


//Did I lie about 4.34? Does your Koran teach you that I, an unbeliever, am "najis"? That you're to fight me until I submit, or "willingly" be subdued and humiliated, paying the Jizya to keep you from killing me? How does one "willingly" be humiliated, by the by?//

I took care of 4:34.
So your following anti-islam myths.
Did jesus tell to be a follower?
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1188043914402&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam%2FAskAboutIslamE%2FAskAboutIslamE

Everyone pays tax under the sharia. Muslims pay zakat and other faiths pay jizya which protects and gives all the needs.

//Islam demeans women, little girls are used as currency in the M.E., being sold to some old Muslim male to settle a family debt. Eight year old babies have marched into courts asking for divorces. Women are on the level of dogs, donkeys, and they interrupt your prayer if they pass in front of you.//

Is it just me or do we have a christian Ali Sina? Give me an islamic source that says women cant choose their husbands or can be sold off by their fathers. Dont give me what Arabia or Pakistan does, i only work with the quran and hadith. Women are equal and if you did quit your ingorance you'd know a thing or two.
Hmm lets see if you are in a church and a nice blonde bodied woman passes infront of you, would take off your pants or countiue to listen to a priest giving a lecture??
Answeing Christainty seems to be enemy number one on here, i suggest you go look at what they have lies and myths they've refuted
spread by your fellow christians.

//Islam has historically lived off the intellectual capital of their host countries; Islam is a parasite.//

Ya ok whats your point.

//Muslims demand respect without extending it to others. //

Well we dont want racist cartoons, articles and videos thrown at us. So your saying we shouldn't ask for repect from others even though they'll countinue to insult our faith?

Islam dishonors the God of Israel, and substitutes a pagan god from their kaaba. Islam denies the Son, and everything He teaches. You have a false messenger so pathologically demented, he claims that "allah" created the world for him ("You should Know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle" Bukhari 85.77)

Pagan God? Isn't that an outdated claim?? False messanger? Another example of christs teachings huh? Putting down other beliefs.
Answering Christianity took care of you last bit:http://www.answering-christianity.com/adeel_khan/Rebuttal_to_Sam_Shamoun8.htm


//You must obey "allah and his apostle" making Muhammad allah's partner, yet you deny his shirk.//

No he is not is a partner of God. He is one.

//Jesus didn't hesitate to confront the false teachers of His day, and He called them a pit of vipers. He warned against the false prophets who would come (that's how Muhammad is mentioned in Scripture).//

Yeah he said you can tell by the fruits. Muhammed's pbuh fuits in no way were bad.

//You serve a messenger so violent, he slaughtered his way through the M.E. You are to fight me and the entire Dar al Harb until none but your pagan god is worshiped.//

Are you really going to pick and choose verses and hadiths? I hope you aren't a debater. You really are making the christian faith a laughable one by the way you're talking.

//I guess, yes, Islam makes me cranky. Maybe it's the "honor killings", or the deception, or the hatred contained in your books. Take your pick. I never gave Islam a thought until 9/11. I wish I'd never had a reason to begin studying your texts. I wish I could go back to my blissful ignorance. I can't. Deal with it.

Again give me a source where islam allows "honour killings". Yeah deception and hatred. Hows that diiferent in your bible? Most people never cared about islam before 9/11. Not even Robert Spencer who started his work after that date.
YOU STUDYING ISLAMIC TEXTS? ARE you actually JOKING? Copying and pasting from anti-islam sites all of a sudden makes you a scholor huh?? Your little arguments are pretty outdated in which not even anti-islamics use. LOL

Fernando said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fernando said...

Ali… I reallie do note wante to beliebe you beliebe in whate you’re saying: you seem, bie your wordes, to be a berie inteligent person. How, then, do you beliebe in such things? Do you reallie beliebe in them?

Anithing someone seems to pointe it out to you based in your own sources, you saie it’s based in a myth agaisnt islam… neber the less, it’s eberything that muslim ideologie and theologie (thate grew upp against the Jewish and Christian theologie since these ones madde notice to the all bunch off contradictiones and discrepancies thate nare found in the qur’an) say aboute Christianity and Judaism thate is a myth… islam’s Christianity anda islam’s judaism do nott existe: they’re a rectorial edification in order to defende a message thate is clearlie against the previous revelations of God… and, Ali, please, do nott pretend to bee one off those muslimes who saie thate the present Holy bookes of Christians and Jews has been corrupted… that’s another myth thate do not satant against the historical ebidences…

The problem, ounce again, with the difference between zakat and jizya is the discriminatory actitude that the previous imputes to non-muslimes… and you know thate for sure: jizya is a way off making non-muslimes experience thate theire free option to not be a muslim is a state thate is hateful for muslimes… it’s not the economical aspect off it: it’s the human stigma thate it brings… it’s just not a terminogical change (as iff “zakat” was juste another name for “jizya”…), butt rather an ontological statement: “you are a inferior people, hated bie our “merciful” god”…

And, please, do nott pretend to beliebe thate to islam women and men are equall… or thate the differences between them are juste an expression off different social or religious roles in the muslime societie… it’s not… and you know thate… muslimes sources state thate women are inferior to men in intelligence and religion… do you wante me to putt the testimonies off these statements here?

As a matter os facte is the all muslim ideologie thate is offensive, from it’s rootes, the qur’an and the hadiths, to Jews, Christians and other religiones (bie the waie: are you, Ali, among those who say thate the other “people off the book” do nott existe since all the Jewish and Christian bookes are corrupted?)… islam, as I stated before, grew upp needing to defend it’s lack off internall sustentability bie attacking Christianity and Judaiism… islam and it’s sources are full off “cartoons”, “videos” and “articles” against Christianity and Judaism… islam core message is so offensive to other religions thate all muslime weeping and wanking to express an “hurt heart” when someone putts an mirror in front off youre “face” is ridiculous… as a muslim convert to Christianity said: «we are just experiencing our own medicine (…)»… islam, in order to defend it’s specificity, needes to kill theire own father’s like in an atrocious and demential Oedipus’ complex… islam onlie survives iff persistes to misrepresent Chrsitianity and Judaism, demonizing theyr followers and creating between muslimes and those an barrier full off hate and intolerance… don’t came to me with thate pseudo-sentiment off “I’m offended”: islam is in its nuclear core offensive to eberione… It’s not Christians thate fabricate ebidences or ocultate them bie prohibiting, bie these or that fatwa, Christians to read and check the historical ebidences off these or thate aspect off historie… Christians do not “putt down other beliefs” (as you say): we juste say: “hey… why do you ignore, or pretend to ignore, these ebident aspect off the history off your religion and theologie?”… this is not “putting down”!!! It’s helping muslimes to understand where their hearts are: in a man edificated religion thate iff full off evidente falsities…

Ali: iff you apllie to islam the same methods off discrediting Chrsitianity and Judaism, with whate would you be? A skeleton in a closet… a bunch off rooten bonnes without anie life or expectation to be alive… it’s clear to eberione thate muslimes tend to “divinize” Muhammad making him, as a matter of facte, a “partner” of God… that’s really shirk… and pretending not to realieze thate do nott help ani muslim to be a truthful muslim… as the centuries have gonne bie, muslimes theologians and muslim piety have divinized Muhammad incurring in the precise abomination thate you, erroneously, say thate Christians habe felt: creating a “partner” to God… as I saide before: you, muslimes, see non-existent “problemes” in others juste because you don’t want to see that they are juste existing in islam… and how can you sai thate Muhammad’s fruites weren’t bad? According to whom? To him? To his wordes? Iff Muhammad is, a priori, the perfect men to muslimes, how can you habe the possibility to say, from there, thate he has an immoral person? Never the less the evidences of thate (Muhammad’s inmorality) are so manie, in your own sources, thate it’s offensive to intelligence, and truth, trying to ignore, ore making other people ignore, thate reality… butt then: you always can say “Hey… he’s our moral standard”… that’s a psychoilogical defence mechanism that denotes an incapacity to accept reality, which, on it’s side, it’s a pathological mental state known as paranoya… in order to pretend to accept Muhammad as a moral authority you habe to cerate an mental excision in order to saie thate lying, ordering killings, creatting pseudo-revelations to fullfill personal ambitions, questionable sexual behaviors (bie respect to you – not to islam –, Ali, I won’t mention them here…), and so one are “morally irreprehensible”… thates sad… not to me, butt rather to muslimes and to human kind… to sad, indeed…

About honour killings… where do these happen? Onlie in: i) muslim countries; ii) countries with a strong, present or antient, muslim presence and inheritance; iii) in western countries where, despite the cultural athmosphere do not require thate horrendous action, muslimes are doing thate… Ali: whate is the least common multiple among these elements? Can you see it? Ounce again, mie friend Ali (and I saie these to you since you seame to em as a berie intelligent person…): the problem is not these or thate specific action, rather the mentality thate, based in islam, has not permited those action to cease… Oh.. I see.. I guess you are already tryien to say: “where in the heck do ismal authorize those actions?”… well… please: just follow mie argument: 1) «And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al Mushrikun (atheists) till they believe (in allah Alone)» (2: 221)… (and yes: I know somme muslimes say this is onlie because in doing so she would habe to become a non-muslime because off a pseudo-necessity thate you beliebe non-muslimes husbands would impose in them to convert to his religion due to the superiority of men ober theyre wifes… butt these argument is based in to falsities: a) in other religions men are owners off their wifes; b) muslim women would need to become non-muslimes…); 2) then, as Abd al-Karim Zaydan states in his book “Al-Mufassal fi Ahkam al-Mar'ati wa Bayt al-Muslim fi al-Shari`at al-Islamiyyah”, a muslim women thate has sexual intercourse (pryior, or not to her marriage…) with an kafir becomes as him… this is: she becomes an apostate (sources? Here you habe them – I’m just quoting Abd al-Karim Zaydan –: Tafsir al-Manar, 2.350-51. Ibn Qudama, Al-Mughni, 6.634. Tafsir al-Qurtubi, 3.72. Imam al-Shafi`, Al-Umm, 5.7. Tafsir Ibn Kathir, 1.258. Tafsir al-Razi, 6.64…); 3) and whate is the penality to apostasie in islam? (do you need quotes from Islamic sources?) So… Ali: we habe here a clear mental connection thate explains why muslim women should be killed in “honour killing”… Iff you btrully think this is an horrific cruelty (eben when Mudammad made some actions as horrific…) you wont rectify it bie ignoring it’s roots, rather by knowing them and trying to explain why they’re wrong…

Fernando said...

Ali... sorrie... I wrotte: «iff you apllie to islam the same methods off discrediting Chrsitianity and Judaism, with whate would you be?»; butt I wanted to write: «iff you apllie to islam the same methods off discrediting Chrsitianity and Judaism, with whate would you habe?»

Ali said...

Fernando you cannot base your "facts" off anti-islam sites. i've proven to you about men being equal to women. you cannot ignore the links and sources i give you. they refute all the lies and myths thrown at us. muslims do not let others preach about our religon.

especially those bibe sites. every single time i do research on islam those sites come up. angers me. i hope this isn't the actions of the holy spirit, as it only guides to goodness.

Ali said...

//So… Ali: we habe here a clear mental connection thate explains why muslim women should be killed in “honour killing”… Iff you btrully think this is an horrific cruelty (eben when Mudammad made some actions as horrific…) you wont rectify it bie ignoring it’s roots, rather by knowing them and trying to explain why they’re wrong…//

i ask you give me those "horrifif" actions. many islamic sites refute everything, so i'll just countinue to do the same.
find me where does it say men can kill women for honour? where does it say she can't choose her husbands.?

BOTH judaism and christianity ALSO have the death penalty.

IslamSINS said...

Ali, Islam isn't a "faith", it's a cult. Christ, returning to judge the world, will reject all those who have reject Him. Islam has rejected the salvation and atonement of Christ, and Christ will reject all Muslims. There is no other name under heaven, given among men, through which we may be saved.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how poking at Islam can be equated with Muslims beheading and warring with non-Muslims. That, my Muslim critic, is the height of criticism and insult. Christ will, indeed, insult Islam, Muhammad, and Muslims when He returns. But God cannot be accused of taking down his enemies without fair warning; He's been sounding the alarm for millennia. You're just not listening.

Sepher Shalom said...

Ali,

Here is the plain truth about the teaching of your prophet and your religion regarding women:

Hell is full of mostly women Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 126: Narrated Imran: The Prophet said, "I looked at Paradise and saw that the majority of its residents were the poor; and I looked at the (Hell) Fire and saw that the majority of its residents were women."

Muhammad was a wife beater
Sahih Muslim 4.2127 - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

Muhammad gives permission to beat your wifeSahih Bukhari 72.715 - A woman came to Muhammad and begged him to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that she is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.

Women are deficient in intellect and religionSahih Bukhari V1B6N301:
The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."

Sahih Bukhari V3B48N826 "The Prophet said, 'Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?' The women said, 'Yes.' He said, 'This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind'."

Women who refuse sex with their husbands are cursedSahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 121: ...The Prophet said, "If a man Invites his wife to sleep with him and she refuses to come to him, then the angels send their curses on her till morning."

"Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: When a man invites his wife to his bed and she does not come, and he (the husband) spends the night being angry with her, the angels curse her until morning".(Sahih Muslim Vol. 2, p. 723)

Women are like domestic animals to be enjoyedTabari IX:113 "Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an. [this is Tabari's commentary on Surah 4:34]

Women are like animals to be ridden"A Woman may be likened to a sheep—even a cow or a camel—for all are ridden.” (Tafsir Al-Qortubi vol.15, p.172)

Muhammad gives permission to beat your wifeSunan Dawud book 11, 2141
"...Do not beat Allah's handmaidens, but when Umar came to the Apostle of Allah and said 'Women have become emboldened towards their husbands', the Prophet gave permission to beat them." Dawud Book 11, 2142
"Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab
The Prophet said, “A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."


Women are similar to slaves and camelsSunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Number 2155 Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As: The Prophet said: If one of you marries a woman or buys a slave, he should say:
"O Allah, I ask Thee for the good in her, and in the disposition Thou hast given her; I take refuge in Thee from the evil in her, and in the disposition Thou hast given her." When he buys a camel, he should take hold of the top of its hump and say the same kind of thing

Kill women who leave IslamSahih al-Bukhari 6921—Ibn Umar, Az-Zuhri and Ibrahim said, “A female apostate (who reverts from Islam), should be killed.”

Women are granted paradise based on pleasing their husband"If a woman dies while her husband was pleased with her, she will enter Paradise." This Hadith was narrated by Um Salmah/At Tirmidhi.

Men are so superior, it almost requires women to bow before them"Narrated by Abu Hurayrah: Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said, "If I were to order anyone to prostrate himself before another, I should order a woman to prostrate herself before her husband."(Al-Tirmidhi Hadith, 3255)
This is the world-view, and these are the teachings that lead these Saudi men to beat their wives and treat them like property. It is Islam that causes people to think this way. I eagerly await your thoughts on this evidence, Ali.

Fernando said...

My frien ali (and I trully consider you as such, eben when youre religion does nott allow you to consider me as such...) saide...

«Fernando you cannot base your "facts" off anti-islam sites»... where did I pointed you to any site? It was you, ali, thate directed me to Osama's site thate is full off hatre agains christianity... butt then, eben those sites can habe, and do habe, truthfull information since they redirect manie times to islamic textes... the truth is the truth no matter the continent...

«i've proven to you about men being equal to women»... no you did not... you just directed to some sites full off hatred agains Christianity and virus... butt I, recently, in the thread "Muslim Cleric: Why Women Shouldn't Be Allowed to Drive" (https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=6590312557191237519&postID=800743071115724860), explaines ounce againe whie you're wrong... and without qouting any other site...

«you cannot ignore the links and sources i give you»... as I saide: why do want me to ignore sites thate you qualify as anti-islamic (eben iff they are right... and eben when I did not go there...), and wante me to go to sites thate are full off hatred agains mie religion?

«they refute all the lies and myths thrown at us»... no they do not... they're jsut a bunch off retorical constructiones to make the "black" seem "white"... sorrie, ali, mie frien ali, you cannot refute an statement just bie ignoring the truth in it...

«muslims do not let others preach about our religon»... ali... I'm starting to become afraid off you… this seams to be a treat… butt your sources are full off attempts to preach Christians and jews about our religion… we Christians do not prohibite anione to speak about our religion… we do nott prohibite anyone to show us the possible weak points in our theologie… we are gratefull to them…

«especially those bibe sites. every single time i do research on islam those sites come up»… well… I could say the same about muslimes sites that, being faithfull to your primarie sources (the qur’an and the hadiths), are full off lies, misrepresentations, treats and so one agains Christianity and Christian people… sorry ali: it’s islam in it’s core thate is offensive to other religions… that’es a problem you habe to deal with in your heart…

«angers me. i hope this isn't the actions of the holy spirit, as it only guides to goodness»… mie friend ali… anger is neber a good soul disposition… neber: it consumes you, it hurts you, it kills you spiritualie… and do not get angered with those sites who attack Christianity, butt I get bery hurt and sorrow: hurt because they offend me; sorrow because they are educating muslim people with a full off lies which reveals thate muslims live in an illusionary world… yes, the Holy Spirit, only guides us to love, peace and good when our soul disposittions are in connexion with God; iff nott, iff he encounter an heart full off hate, lies, illussions, his loving action (like in a chirurgie) mekes one suffer… the debil action is the opposite: he gives tranquyility to those who are in lies, and suffer to those who are in the love and in the truthe… as I saide: Islam’s Christianity expressed in the qur’an an dthe hadiths do not exist… muslimes live in a lie…

«i ask you give me those "horrifif" actions»… any “honour killin” is an horrific action… so: its you thate needs to probe thate the continuously noticed honour killins are nott an “horrific” action…

«many islamic sites refute everything, so i'll just countinue to do the same»… ali, thate’s called “copy and paste”… please: trie to present your pointes as I, eben with mie poor English (and I thankes you the painb I guess you’re habing in reading mie wordes…), are doing here… I show mie face; I do not counceal mie opinions…

«find me where does it say men can kill women for honour?»… ok: just an exemple off a juridical muslime text that shows thate the killing one member off it’s family is nott forbidden and must not be punished: «retaliation is obligatory against anyone who kills a human being purely intentionally and without right." However, "not subject to retaliation" is "a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring's offspring.”» Umddat all-Salik e01,1s… this is an opening the door to those “horrific” actions I mentioned…


«where does it say she can't choose her husbands?»… ali, this is called an lapsus linguae… I neber side thate… but it’s absoluletie true thate a muslime women is forbidden to marrie a non-muslim men… sorrie ali… but thates the truth… please see the book I reffered before: Abd al-Karim Zaydan states in his book “Al-Mufassal fi Ahkam al-Mar'ati wa Bayt al-Muslim fi al-Shari`at al-Islamiyyah” who sayes «The impermissibility of a female Muslim marrying a non-Muslim is absolute. The Umma has reached consensus that it is not permissible for a non-Muslim to have sex with a female Muslim under any circumstances. The exegetes and legists are in consensus concerning this matter» (6180); in the subsequent paragraph he states: «The impermissibility of marrying a female Muslim to a non-Muslim is an impermissibility that is fixed [thabit] and incontrovertible [qat`i], whatever the non-Islamic religion may be (i.e., whether the husband is from Ahl al-Kitab, an idol worshiper, a Majus, or not affiliated with a particular religion)»«BOTH judaism and christianity ALSO have the death penalty»… Ali… mie friend ali… now it’s me who sya to you: you simply habe reade that in anti-jewfish and anti-Christian sites… butt I’ll ignore this fact; can you presente anie evidence (like I made with muslim textes) thate show thate? Can you? Ali? I’ll be waiting… as I saide before: we Christians do not prohibite anione to speak about our religion… we do nott prohibite anyone to show us the possible weak points in our theologie… we are gratefull to them

Fernando said...

Ali... This weak I'll be away... butt after mie return I'll trie to find your always kind wordes... May Jesus Christ, our God, bless you in your search for the truth and love...

Ali said...

heres a link that refutes shalom:

the most questionable hadiths about women (from a former christian)

http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/mistranslations_of_hadiths.htm

Ali said...

Since my comments are being deleted even though in no way they are offensive i'll tackel everything bit by bit.

http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1177156116051&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam%2FAskAboutIslamE%2FAskAboutIslamE

Alforreca said...

Ali... Ain’t you ashamed of what are you doing? Redirecting to other sites is the climax off dishonesty... can’t you present your own arguments? And refute the arguments others present here? You can’t just say: “I dealt with that when I redirected you to that or that link”. And, as Fernando pointed out, you can’t attack Christian sites and defend Osama’s site just because the previous are defending Christianity from islamic offenses and expose islam’s wickedness and these are, in your opinion, doing the opposite. It’s islam that’s offensive in it’s very core to all other religions since its dawn; not the opposite. The worst blind is the one who does not want to see. Shame on you Ali. Shame on you Ali.

Sepher Shalom said...

Ali said: "Fernando you cannot base your "facts" off anti-islam sites."

Ali said: "i've proven to you about men being equal to women."


So when someone else constructs their own argument and presents it for all to see, they are "using anti-islam sites". But when you don't even bother to construct an argument of your own, but rather paste links devoid of your own thought and critique, suddenly everything that is said is "refuted"?


The irrefutable fact is that Islam condones and directs men to use physical contact against their wives as a negative stimulus to alter their behavior.


I provided the Islamic references that prove Muslim men can hit their wives. I provided the Islamic references that prove Islam teaches female inferiority, in a degrading fashion.


Your response? > Here is a link. I have refuted you.


It seems clear that you are unable to defend Islam of your own accord. Spitting up links and chest-beating over 'refuting' things is not impressive.

Ali said...

//Ali... Ain’t you ashamed of what are you doing? Redirecting to other sites is the climax off dishonesty... can’t you present your own arguments?//

My arguments arent really any different than theres. and plus these are actual scholors who know the material inside and out.

//And, as Fernando pointed out, you can’t attack Christian sites and defend Osama’s site just because the previous are defending Christianity from islamic offenses and expose islam’s wickedness and these are, in your opinion, doing the opposite.//

HA ok nearly EVRY SINGLE anti-islam source of material are christian run. i think answering-christianity is the only ant-christian muslim run site. AND it was made in a RESPONSE to the myths and lies invented by those anti-islam christians. your saying i'm blind? futhermore i only use islamic material from AC and nothing about christianity. tell me, who do you think are the liars? the over 50 anti-islam christian run sites, or one ant-christian site WHICH WAS MADE IN A RESPONSE to the offending and false material your fellow christians made?

Ali said...

//It seems clear that you are unable to defend Islam of your own accord. Spitting up links and chest-beating over 'refuting' things is not impressive.//

Yeah neither is copying and pasting what you get from faithfreedom and answering islam.
You rely on those anti-islamics. you didn't come up with the verses or hadiths on your own.

Alforreca said...

Ali... shame on you!!! The net is full of sites against Christianity and Christians!!! But we can ignore that fact and say that your pseudo-holly book is full oh hate towards Christianity and Christians… get ride of it! Christian bases sites are not anti-islam: they’re just exposing the lies of islam; the offensive nature of islam that only knows to attack other religions and specially deconstructing your rhetorical attempts to say, in the west, what you don’t even date to think in muslim countries (the myth that the qur’an and other sources do not prohibit muslims to be friend with non muslims if so common in the net that it’s offensive to intelligence)… But Ali: where someone here redirected you to ANY site? It’s was you who has done that continuously, and, as you admitted, has done that to an anti-christian site when you said to other bloggers, who did not quoted any site, that theirs arguments were invalid because they were doing so… Ali: you did not present any argument!!! You only redirected to other sites… and you dare to say that those people who write in those sites are scholars? Looool… they’re just a bunch of anti-Christians who don’t know anything about Christianity and are just trying to deceit persons presenting an islam that does not exist. Ali... shame on you!!! Shame on you!!! When your doing an exam and someone says: “explain me why 2+2=4” you can’t just say: “that’s the way it is because I read it so in a book from someone who hates maths and says that 5+5=9”… Ali... shame on you!!! You’re the face of islam: lies, deceptions, false arguments, lack of personal arguments… islam that’s all of that!

Alforreca said...

Ali said: «You rely on those anti-islamics. you didn't come up with the verses or hadiths on your own»... loooool... if some non-muslim quotes muslim verses and hadiths, it's because he has read them in anti-muslim sites... loooooooooool.... Ali!!! You are full off incredible christianophobia!!! Shame on you!!! Shame on you!!!

Ali said...

LOL anti-christian huh?
common christian response when they dont know how to defend the bible.

Alforreca said...

Ali... defend the Bible? Where as the Bible have been in debate in this thread? It’s was you that said that Christians and Jews also have death penalty… ounce again: can you present any evidence of this statement? Specially, since I and Fernando, are Christians, can you provide hard evidences for us Christians of that reality? I’ll even give you some hints: muslim’s concept of revelation is not the same as the Christian’s; in the OT there’re strictly cultural laws and the major religious laws resumed in the Decalogue. Ali… I laughed at you due to your incoherence… And by the way: shifting from islam (this was the matter of this thread) to Christianity is the proof islam cannot be defended in itself… nevertheless I’ll be here waiting for your proof that «Christians and Jews also have death penalty»… but one thing is certain: if you express a total lack of understanding of those two hints I presented, I’ll simply ignore you…

Ali said...

//Ali… I laughed at you due to your incoherence… And by the way: shifting from islam (this was the matter of this thread) to Christianity is the proof islam cannot be defended in itself… //

LOL it was YOU who came on and started bashing islam in whole.
so its your problem when i started to hint to christianity.

//in the OT there’re strictly cultural laws and the major religious laws resumed in the Decalogue//

Hm yet when i explain to your people on how saudi arabia and pakistan run on culture laws, you seem to ignore them and not believe me so WHY should i believe you that the OT uses culture and not religious laws?

Ali said...

I dont know why some of my posts get deleted even though i dont say anything offenseive. and its really starnge how this site allows "freedom of speech".

once again, muslims do not run anti-christian sites. nearly every single anti-muslim source of material is by christians. and you say by defending ourselves we're liars? those scholors on islamic sites who answer questions can thoroughly refute any christian lie and myth. i ask again is this the actions of the holy spirit?

Sepher Shalom said...

Ali said: "heres a link that refutes shalom:

the most questionable hadiths about women (from a former christian)"
Please explain how that refutes me? I'm going to need you to walk me through it, and then I will be happy to interact with your comment.


Thank you

Sepher Shalom said...

Ali said: "Hm yet when i explain to your people on how saudi arabia and pakistan run on culture laws, you seem to ignore them..."Because it has been demonstrated that in the instance in question, the Saudis are acting in congruence with the historical position of Islamic teaching.

[You should know Ali, that most of the people on this blog will not follow any links to answering-christianity. It is infested with malware, and I was reading some old posts from several months ago where numerous people were having malware and/or virus issue related to that site. If you are attempting to bring arguments from that site, please quote the relevant portions or rephrase them in your own words, or realize that those links are going completely ignored]

Sepher Shalom said...

Ali said: "LOL anti-christian huh?
common christian response when they dont know how to defend the bible"
Ali, I return your own charge squarely back on you. Please have at least the smallest bit of consistency. You are ranting about "anti-Islam sites" all over this blog for days now.


I simply suggest that if what you are saying is true, then it must be equally true about you [ergo, you are giving a common Muslim response when you don't know how to defend Islam].

Alforreca said...

Ali said: «LOL it was YOU who came on and started bashing islam in whole.
so its your problem when i started to hint to Christianity»
… Ok, Ali, I’ll refresh that this thread is about a "Saudi judge: It's OK to slap spendthrift wives", so it’s natural to speak about islam… More: it was you that from the start that started to attack people around here accusing them not to follow Jesus. And no one is bashing islam… we are just presenting hard fact about it; precisely the opposite from you, and islam, who only can defend it’s position creating lies… loooool… the it was you that said that we were following anti-islam myths just because we made clear reference to islam sources… it’s islam that is, as a whole, an anti-Christian myth from it’s start! Ali: shame on you!!!

«Hm yet when i explain to your people on how saudi arabia and pakistan run on culture laws, you seem to ignore them and not believe me so WHY should i believe you that the OT uses culture and not religious laws? »… well; just an example of how this works (only to those who lack a minimum of intelligence…): the OT has cultural and descriptive laws that were putted away because they were not relevant after the increasing in knowledge about God; muslims still follow cultural laws, that did not exist prior to the arriving of islam, despite being following islam… more: we all presented to you examples that those supposedly “muslim cultural laws” are, idded, rooted in islam theology… Ali: shame on you!!!

Mayhem said...

Women are NOT equal in Islam. The problem is that they can be slapped, they can be hit, they can be raped by a man and be blamed for it, they are rejected by their families if they go against their husbands, they can't drive cars, they can't wear decent clothes because men see that as unmodest and can't control themselves, the litany is endless. They are NOT equal. I don't know, but I bet they can't get loans, own houses etc. Too many cooks in Islam. No Indians. I say, let's get rid of religion entirely and start with a level playing field. Oh....heaven!

Yahya Snow said...

Events and pronouncemnets by people in Saudi Arabia such as these are just fuel for bigots who want to attack Islam.

The really unfortunate thing is that we have people considering themselves as 'evangelical Christians' taking part in this bigotry.

I must say that Islam is the most attacked religion on the plante (especially so on the internet) and I perceive most of the attacking to be originating from racists or evenagelical Christians...

Food for thought, especially considering that the attacks are based on misconceptions/lies or faulty interpretations rendering the criticism as nothing more than propoganda...

Food for thought, indeed!

Fernando said...

Hei, Yahya Snow... here is another example thate islam is the moste attacked religion in the worlde:

http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=19602&t=Pakistan%3A + Christians + ready + to + die + for + their + faith

juste erase the sapeces arounde teh + signal...

Mariah Ammar said...

Woman was made from the rib of a man,
she was not created from his head to top him,
nor from his feer to be stepped upon,
she was made from his side to be close to him,
from beneath his arm to be protected by him,
near his heart to be loved by him...
Islam is equal to both men and women..if there are people searching for the negetive things to blame our religion,i think they need to do a little more studying then they have...and may Allah guide them...Ameen..