Monday, May 25, 2009

Nadir Ahmed Declares: Shabir Ally and Ahmed Deedat Are Kafirs!

As everyone knows, Nadir Ahmed has been going around claiming that Shabir Ally's son has been cursed with blindness because Shabir supports Swoon Theory. Nadir has been criticized quite harshly (by both Muslims and Christians) for this sick claim, and he is now desperately trying to clean up the mess he's made. For instance, Nadir said in a phone conversation with Ehteshaam that he doesn't know whether Shabir has been cursed (Note: Wouldn't this admission demand a public apology? Where's the apology to Shabir?). Nadir has also claimed here that Ahmed Deedat was not cursed by God (despite Nadir's statement that he will proclaim Allah's curse consistently, whether he sees a Muslim or a Christian suffer).

It's clear, however, that Nadir is simply trying to avoid the backlash from his fellow Muslims, and that he does believe that Shabir has been cursed. Indeed, someone recently sent me a dialogue with Nadir in which everyone's least favorite Muslim apologist declares that Swoon Theory is kufr (a sign of unbelief)!

Ali_wa3ad: how many of you believe in the swoon theory
LifeBeyondEarth: "I hope the time is not far off when I shall be able to unite all the wise and educated men of all the countries and establish a uniform regime based on the principles of Qur'an which alone are true and which alone can lead men to happiness." Napolean Bonaparte
nadir_ahmed: mashalaah
Ali_wa3ad: nadir ahmed?
LifeBeyondEarth: Khalif (Caliph) Al-Ma'mun's period of rule (813 - 833 C.E.) may be considered the 'golden age' of science and learning. He had always been devoted to books and to learned pursuits. His brilliant mind was interested in every form of intellectual activity. Not only poetry but also philosophy, theology, astronomy, medicine and law all occupied his time.” Sir John Bagot Glubb
LIGHT SABER: what's the swoon theory?
LAIZY:
dsl_gh: LifeBeyondEarth stop flooding the text
Ibn Anwar Al-Shafie: 39 years = France Islamic Republic
Ali_wa3ad: are you aware of what people are doing to you on answeringmuslims.com
nadir_ahmed: the swoon theory is kufr
Ali_wa3ad: is that why you think god cursed shabir alleys son?
skypilot117: Ibn Anwar, that won't be happening, Frenchmen are far too protective of their culture and language to ever let Islam be anything but one of the religions in its country
nadir_ahmed: Ali - dont worry... those kuffar are SCARED TO DEATH TO CONFRONT ME
nadir_ahmed: RAISE YOUR HAND ALI
nadir_ahmed: YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN HIDING UNDER A MUSLIM NICK
Ali_wa3ad: im not a chirstian
Ali_wa3ad: im angry at you
nadir_ahmed: RAISE YOUR HAND
Ali_wa3ad: even sami is against you
nadir_ahmed: LETS HEAR YOU AT THE MIC
Ali_wa3ad: and he has a site defending islam

Now here's the problem. If someone believes something that is kufr, he is a kafir (an infidel or unbeliever). There is an exception, however. If someone believes in something that is kufr because of faultless ignorance (e.g. because he lives in an area without an imam to guide him), he may still be considered a Muslim. If, however, the person has had sufficient exposure to the facts, kufr makes him a kafir.

Nadir has claimed that Swoon Theory is kufr. This means that any Muslim who maintains Swoon Theory after being exposed to the evidence is a kafir. But Muslim apologists such as Shabir Ally, Ahmed Deedat, Shadid Lewis, Ehteshaam Gulam, and all Ahmadis have defended Swoon Theory. Thus, according to Nadir, Shabir Ally and Ahmed Deedat are kafirs!

If you think that's bad, wait until my next post on Nadir. Based on some articles he just sent me, I can now say that, according to Nadir, (1) Muhammad was under God's curse, (2) Allah is totally incompetent, and (3) the Qur'an is a book of lies. One wonders how a Muslim apologist can make such claims, but the evidence shows that Nadir is doing everything in his power to bring down Islam and Islam's greatest apologists. I'm amazed that so many Muslims are still putting up with this, and that so few (e.g. Yahya and Sami) are speaking out against Nadir.

39 comments:

Anthony Rogers said...

David,

You mentioned that Nadir sent you some articles. Has he been banned from posting here and giving an account of his reasoning (or lack thereof), or is he just showing that he can muster up enough wisdom to know that if he doesn't drop his claim, then it is best to remain silent in a public forum like this where it will be exposed?

Anonymous said...

This makes me feel really sorry for out muslim friends.

Sepher Shalom said...

I'm starting to think that Nadir might be "the curse of Allah" sent to torment the Muslims =)

Royal Son said...

David - Did you receive the audio I sent you you regarding the Shabir/Deedat cursed issue ?

Royal Son said...

Never mind, I just noticed you put it in. :)

ubiquitouserendipity said...

(1) Muhammad was under God's curse, (2) Allah is totally incompetent, and (3) the Qur'an is a book of lies.

three well established truths. that was easy.

Peace, and a blessed memorial day. G_d bless our veterans and those who paid the ultimate sacrifice that we might engage in free speech. i hear mohammedans actually detest free speech. no wonder,,, it costs them exposure

Sepher Shalom said...

Is it just my imagination, or was one of the Muslims in that text chat claiming that Napolean Bonaparte was a Muslim who wanted to rule the world by Sharia?? O_o

Radical Moderate said...

Sepher Shalom said...
Is it just my imagination, or was one of the Muslims in that text chat claiming that Napolean Bonaparte was a Muslim who wanted to rule the world by Sharia?? O_o

Yeah I thought that was strange too. Sounds kind of like the claim Neil Armstrong heard the call to prayer when he walked on the moon and converted to Islam. Or Pope John Paul converted to islam on his death bed.

Fernando said...

Sepher Shalom said: «Is it just my imagination, or was one of the Muslims in that text chat claiming that Napolean Bonaparte was a Muslim who wanted to rule the world by Sharia?? O_o»...

well.. this claim is madde by Christian Cherfils in his "Bonaparte et L'Islam"...

I do not know iff there's an englishe translation...

he bases this statement in a quote off Napoleon's private secretarie, Louis Antoinne Fauvelet de Bourriene ("Mémoires sur Napoléon"), who saide that Bonaparte ACTED more likke a muslim than likke a Christian because he USED religion as an POLITICAL instrument to DOMINATE people...

see the difference?...

Anonymous said...

I'm starting to think that Nadir might be "the curse of Allah" sent to torment the Muslims =)I think you have a point.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

There are also rumours that Khomeini died from seing a burning cross appearing over his bed.

Fernando said...

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said: « There are also rumours that Khomeini»...

Brother Hogan... that's note juste some rummurs... his last wordes were, according to Ibrahim Yazdi (his closest advisor and personal friene), recorded on tappe and indeed he saide so... is itt true? can those wordes be clearly heard? I do nott know...

One thing is certean: there are bery relieable historical evidences (see the workes off Imadd al-Din al-Isfahanni) thate Saladin might have converted to Christianity one year priour to his dead in 1193... he was baptized bie the latin patriarch of Jerusalen Heraclius who gave him the permision to be a cripto-Christian so his son's and daughter's would note bee killed as a represalia...

David Wood said...

SP said: "Has he been banned from posting here and giving an account of his reasoning (or lack thereof)"

No, Nadir's still free to post his reasoning. But I think he's learned that he tends to get in trouble no matter what he says.

IslamSINS said...

Ali_wa3ad: are you aware of what people are doing to you on answeringmuslims.com Bwaahahaha!

Is Nadir "aware" of his tx in answeringmuslims? He's more than aware; he's actually ignorant enough to be wallowing in it. He'll accept any sort of public mention - fair or foul - because it all (in his decaying mind) validates him.

So, this "allah" appointed Muhammad as messenger, and Nadir as judge? Subahan Allah! Here I thought "allah" died with his messenger, but he's appointed another mouthpiece. I wunner if Allah will teach Nadir Arabic. I'm sure that's still his language of choice. ;-)

Nadir is infused with delusion, so it isn't necessary to critique him at all; he'll unwrap his own peculiar brand of lunacy, time after time, incoherent thought after incoherent thought. His culture seems to come from a petri dish.

Ehteshaam Gulam said...

My official response to this is coming soon-- stay tuned!

Nakdimon said...

David Wood: "No, Nadir's still free to post his reasoning. But I think he's learned that he tends to get in trouble no matter what he says."


Nah, David. He hasnt learned anything. Just two days ago he was boasting to me about how he demolished James White in his debate and that I wouldn't dare to face him. I wonder why he always thinks that people are afraid to meet him face to face and tell him what they say about him online. I think that if we would meet in real life, that he would be very surprised about my appearance.

But the day that guy will actually learn something will be some day!

Nakdimon

Anonymous said...

I was recently told that Muhammed once made the prophecy that "My people will not agree on an error".

If this is correct, then isn't the consensus of early muslim-scholars that Jesus was not put on the cross a deadly objection to the swoon-theory?

Royal Son said...

I believe Nadir is just putting up a front or what we might call "saving face". Problem is, he just keeps putting his foot in his mouth.

Ehteshaam Gulam said...

Nobody makes fun of the swoon theory and gets away with it. My official response coming soon!

IslamSINS said...

Royal Son, I think Nadir doesn't have feet; he has cloven hooves. :-(

Ehteshaam Gulam said...

David,

Is it true that a Wiccan did a curse on you and then he died? Thats the funniest thing I've ever heard.

Nakdimon said...

Gulam: "Nobody makes fun of the swoon theory and gets away with it. My official response coming soon!"

Gulam, EVERYBODY pokes fun at the swoon theory, because of its absurd assertions. Scholars have unanimously rejected this theory because its untennable. Yet, Muslims, out of sheer desperation, keep applying this theory despite of all the evidence to the contrary and the total lack of support for it. And you have to, because the Qur'an forces you to hold this position.

So, Esteshaam, it is perfectly ok to poke fun at the swoon theory, because that is a position that has been renounced unanimously by scholars all over the place. That would be like people going around seriously claiming that sperm comes from between the backbone and the kidneys or that the earth is a cube. Who wouldn't poke fun at that?

Anonymous said...

exactly nakdimon,

yet Eteshaam still has the illusion that the swoon theory is a legitimate alternative explanation. A position that not even atheist hold too.

I hate to admit it but nadir has a point in stating that only fools will hold to such a vision.

BTW: Eteshaam, I’m still waiting for you to ‘put up or sh*t up’ >>> My comment in the ‘Who was Jesus’

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

What the swoon theory?

That the is the most ridicolous theory in existence; anyone holding on to such nonsense clearly plays with his or hers integrity.

It probably originates along with the conspiracy theories that emerged from the enlightment movement and other thinkers in the 16th - 19th century.

Even the most critical scholars on the Quest of the Historical Jesus reject it.

However, there are more of such theories, such as Jesus feeding the 5000. Those who favoured the swoon theory and similar ideas also believed that Jesus had food stored up secretly in a cave for all these people.

Brother Etheshaam I am sure you are a good guy, at least that is the impression I get, but I guess that much like me, you have watched or read too much of the marvelous super hero world ideas; waking up in that manner would suite Batman and Superman very well, but it simply fails to prove logical in the historical context.

And take my word for it, I think it is cool for an apologist, Muslim or Christian to be so fascinated with your kind of movies and cartoons, I believe we are on the same track here.

Royal Son said...

Rafa-el said:

"I hate to admit it but nadir has a point in stating that only fools will hold to such a vision."

The problem with Nadir is he is completely inconsistent, because he says that Deedat was not cursed for believing the swoon theory but Ally was.

I think I'll have to try and get Nadir on the mic to tell me if he thinks that Deedat was a kafir.

Jeffrey Pacheco said...

to Ehteshaam

Is your response better than what Deedat said about it?

Anonymous said...

The swoon theory is "Jesus didn't die on the cross".
Muslims use a super-version of it and say "Well, maybe God made it just look like he didn't die"

However, I would like to know why people believed Jesus rose from the dead after that.

Ehteshaam Gulam said...

Okay here is my offical response to my debate with Mr. Wood:

http://answering-christian-claims.com/Full-Review-of-Debate.html

Here you will find why the swoon theory is the only reasonable view to take. As for Nadir calling out Shabir and Ahmed deedat kafirs-- I am going to have to confirm that with Nadir himself-- stay tuned.

Fernando said...

Ehteshaam Gulam said: «Here you will find why the swoon theory is the only reasonable view to take»...

onli reasonable to take to whate? to be honest withe historical data or with the positions off the qur'an?

nma said...

Fernando said...
Ehteshaam Gulam said: «Here you will find why the swoon theory is the only reasonable view to take»...

onli reasonable to take to whate? to be honest withe historical data or with the positions off the qur'an?
Swoon theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swoon_theoryI have a better and the most reasonable theory: While baby prophet Isa was in Maryam's womb,
Sheitan kidanapped baby prophet Isa, cloned him before putting him back in the womb. When Allah knew about this, Allah called for a Jihad against Sheitan and after an exciting chase through the galaxies, Sheitan was shot down with shooting stars and Allah took charge of Isa's clone. By this time prophet Isa was taken to the cross but not yet crucified and Allah replaced Isa with his clone.

Royal Son said...

Ehteshaam, I read your review. In it you made a passing comment that the Yusuf Ali translation is the most trusted translation of the Qur'an.

Perhaps you might like to comment briefly on this verse from the Yusuf Ali translation which suggests that Islam is a cult:

22:78 - And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline): He has chosen you and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector― the― Best to protect and the Best to help!

Fernando said...

Royal Son... juste don't expecte anie answer from young Ehteshaam... he's allreadie learning thate the onlie waie to be awaie from the contradiction between his believes and the factes is being silence...

Ehteshaam Gulam said...

Royal Son,

Islam clearly sees itself as a religion, not a cult. Read Quran 5:3:

....This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.... (Quran 5:3 Yusef Ali Translation).

Actually regarding the verse you bring up, I highly suggest you read Quran 22:78 in regards to Pickthal's translation and Shakir's translation. They translate the original Arbaic word to Religion.

Royal Son said...

Ehteshaam Gulam: I don't think you paid attention friend. I was simply responding to a claim you made in your debate that the Yusuf Ali translation is the most trusted and respected translation of the Qur'an.

Hence, I brought surah 22:78 from the YUSUF ALI translation. I wanted you to comment on it. Now you're heading me off to Pickthal and Shakir. Are you telling me now that the Yusuf Ali translation is not so trustworthy?

I don't understand. And by the way, a religion can be cultic. That's how I view Islam. Just take a look how dictionaries define the word cult. Islam fits the definition perfectly.

Ehteshaam Gulam said...

Royal Son,

Not really. Islam is a religion. I can say Christianity is a cult. I can also say, Christianity is a savior cult that copied off off other Pagan savior cults.

See this is one of the main reasons Why I am Not A Christian--- Christianity is not unique in any way-- everything it teaches has been done before by The cult of Innanna, etc.

Islam is a religion-- It always has been always will be.

nma said...

Ehteshaam Gulam said...

See this is one of the main reasons Why I am Not A Christian--- Christianity is not unique in any way-- everything it teaches has been done before by The cult of Innanna, etc.

Do you really believe Islam is unique? Much of the Quran's material were stolen from OT and NT, and pagan cults. The only new material in the Quran is what Mohammed made up, like Allah's asking the angels to prostrate before Adam.

nma said...

Mohammed also stole from some false Gospels.

Abdullah said...

What are you guys talking about?

I read the bible and I ask questions to your priests .. And it's disappointing that if you ask two different priests the same question, each will give you a different answer .. Soo wonder why every priest has a different spirit?

Didnt Jesus say the spirit of truth will guide you .. So if each priest has the spirit and against each other, will it means they are all non christian?

I dont see the evudence that Nadir state that .. Plus you all say that we are inperfect so why you are blaming Muslims for one man?

Unknown said...

@Abdullah By the same token there are 73 firkas in Islam, each touting their own theory so is Allhas spirt and words so messed up that the imams have difficulty in understanding it.