indeed it was one sided, white hardly responded to any of the 6 attributes, and gave a terrible response concerning Mary. Shamoun's 'brief' commentary is only a further proof of that, Shamoun knew he had to do something to bail dr. white out. nearly 5000 have viewed it now, the majority of the comments says it all, :) one sided indeedio!
Sami if you were in india in cow boy style in any debates or in any program u wud have been cut into pieces.Even zakir naik who comes in short pant and funny cap is been critized by mullas here.If u want to be a star then u shud know that only lying for islam is not enough but come up like 7th century man liek shabir .best of luck
Sami- don't forget to explain yourself in the post immediately before this, Censoring the Christian Debater. We're all wondering what you have to say in response.
I never understood how Muslims could maintain that Jesus never claimed to be God, when the Jewish authorities condemned Jesus to death on the basis of BLASPHEMY (Claiming to be the Son of God)!
Ariel said: «I never understood how Muslims could maintain that Jesus never claimed to be God, when the Jewish authorities condemned Jesus to death on the basis of BLASPHEMY (Claiming to be the Son of God)!»...
either:
# 1: claiming that other peoplle in the Bible are called (not in the samme sence... but they'll neber say this to you...) "son of God";
# 2: claiming that being "Son of God" is not the samme as "God";
# 3: saying those passages habe been corrupted and that Jesus neber spoke them...
you may choose and picke... it's like goingue to a Baskin Robbins of ignoranse...
Surprise, surprise. Here is what I found Yahya Haydour Seymour posting on a Christian blog concerning Jalal Abualrub:
Peace,
Dr. White may have won that debate hands down as well as his rather pathetic debate with the Pseudo-Shaykh Jalal Abu alRuh,
However it’s a bit like me going out and debating a Pseudo-Christian Scholar like Jimmy Swaggart and boasting over a cheap victory like that.
Shabir Ally wiped the floor with White in the second debate, and White kept throwing in Red Herrings in their first debate.
By: Yahya Hayder Seymour on April 23, 2008 at 9:33 am, at http://rdtwot.wordpress.com/2008/03/22/no-scholars-for-you/
Wow, so Jalal is a pseudo-shaykh on the same level as a Jimmy Swaggart. And yet you have someone like Sami who teams up with a Shia who dislikes Salafi shaykhs like Jalal.
And it is only in Yahya's miraj that Shabir beat White twice.
Well, I'm happy that Yahya (unlike most Muslims) recognizes that Jimmy Swaggart was a lame debate opponent. The most popular debate in the Middle East is Deedat vs. Swaggart, so many Muslims clearly have no problem declaring victory over a horrible opponent and proclaiming this as proof that Islam is true.
What was the context of Yahya's first sentence? What was the other debate that James won hands down?
The first debate which yahya has in mind was the one on the inspiration of the NT, the second was on whether Jesus chose to die as a vicarious sacrifice on behalf of God's people.
Here are some articles written on the commentaries of Ben Malik's reviews of Shabir Ally and James White Debates, I found at Call to Monotheism website. The articles also include the links to the orginal articles that Ben Malik wrote as himself, Sam Shamoun.
hey snake nazzam, are you taking credit for those replies? hehehe
I will inform your hero Shamoun since he has been planning on addressing that anonymous kid who wasn't courageous to include his name. I am sure he will be glad to know that it was you, snake nazam, who wrote them.
Sorry for the off-topic; I'm not interested in muslims, but in philosophical criticisms of atheism and metaphysical naturalism.
One of my particular interest is in philosophically sound replies to the new atheist, like Peter Williams' book A Sceptic Guide to Atheism or Edward Feser's book "The Last Superstition", the latter named by ForeWord Magazine a finalist for the Book of the Year Award in the field of religion:
Your writings in the website "Answering Infidels" are very good, and I'd like to ask you if you have new articles, papers or reviews on atheism or methaphysical naturalism. I hope you can keep writing more articles on it. (in fact, I suggest you to write a complete book on it)
Also, have you published or are you going to publish a book or paper on the "problem of evil"? Are they available online? Both the "problem of evil" and the "problem of free-will" are very interesting philosophical topics for me.
I'm not religious, but I have a strong interest in spirituality and philosophy of religion and mind.
Since the debate about Muhammad is off, I will make an audio rebuttal to Sami’s claims in debate with Dr White and an assessment of the debate with me on the same subject. I will take his false claims one by one and shoot them down and expose the misinterpretation and total ignorance of Sami when it comes to the Biblical text. It’s time to put an end to Sami’s deceptive tactics. He throws anything and everything out there in an audio debate and hopes that it sticks. He wont have a written debate with a set format because then he will have to be exegetical and he plainly sucks at that. So keep an eye out for the audio I will make.
Jime... welcome to this blog... hoppe to see you againe around here!!!
Just some questionne (I'm also bery interested in the connection between religions and spiritualitie...): biy aislating "religion" and "spirituality", do you agree that a person can be a "spiritual being" without being a "religious being"?
ore do you think he just can ignore this latter dimention and live the first one?
ore bye religion do you mean an "institutional organization of spirituality" or an "institutional organization of the personal religious dimention"?
Yes, by religion, I mean an institutional organization of spirituality that includes a predetermined set of belief regarding questions as God, souls, afterlife, or similar topics etc.
By spirituality, I mean a wider concept, that is, simply the search of a spiritual dimension (provided it exist), not necessarily limited to an institutional organization of of it.
I'm not saying that supporters of a "religion" (as refered to above) are not spiritual; my point is only that I don't limit the concept of spirituality to organized religion.
For example, regarding the afterlife (a topic that I've been researching for the last 7 years), I have an empirical approach to it. I mean, I don't "believe it" due to some set of predetermined religious beliefs, but that I try that my belief on it depends on the empirical evidence supporting it (provided that it exists, of course).
Some metaphysical naturalists assume that if you accept an afterlife (or have an interest in it), then you're a religious fundamentalist or a cover christian, or are a coward that is afraid of death. However, there are contemporary secular philosophers that accept an afterlife (or the possibility of it), on purely empirical ground, some examples:
-Philosopher Robert Almeder, professor of philosophy at Georgia State University. See an interview with him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZhMDU9GcVg
And:
http://www.skeptiko.com/index.php?id=23
-Philosopher Neal Grossman, associate professor of philosophy in University of Illinois at Chicago. Hear an interview with him:
http://www.skeptiko.com/index.php?id=21
-Stephen Braude, Professor of Philosophy and Chair of the Department at the University of Maryland Baltimore County:
http://userpages.umbc.edu/~braude/
They accept (with more or less conviction) the evidence suggestive of an afterlife, on purely empirical grounds. I include myself in that group.
As I accept the evidence for it (at least, the best of it), I'm intellectually forced to research about a spiritual dimesion of human beings and the philosophical implications of that evidence; but I'm not (and I don't want be) limited by a specific religious framework to do that research.
I hope my english is good enough to make clear my opinion.
David: Well, I'm happy that Yahya (unlike most Muslims) recognizes that Jimmy Swaggart was a lame debate opponent. The most popular debate in the Middle East is Deedat vs. Swaggart, so many Muslims clearly have no problem declaring victory over a horrible opponent and proclaiming this as proof that Islam is true.
Well Professor Wood, I wouldn't say you can verify that "Most Muslims" claim that the victory of the late Shaykh Deedat (ra) over Swaggart was proof that Islam is true. Neither would I say that Deedat's debate with Swaggart is the most popular in the Mid East, during the time I lived in three Mid East countries I never saw it on sale once.
Sam Shamoun: hey snake nazzam, are you taking credit for those replies? hehehe
I will inform your hero Shamoun since he has been planning on addressing that anonymous kid who wasn't courageous to include his name. I am sure he will be glad to know that it was you, snake nazam, who wrote them.
Nice to see the Holy Spirit is back calling people snakes and refering to itself in third person.
What I do think is hilarious is that Muslims on this blog are rather obsessed with the identity of Ben Malik. It's become an eternal struggle within this blog... like David said, I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried. :-)
Yahya... dispite you habent answer my questiones before (too busy I guess...) here's a simple one: were you the person who presentted Sami Zaatari in the beggining of thee debate with Doctor White?
Iff Yahya keeps is actitude hand don't answer, can anyone gibe me a answer? thanks...
BlackBaron said: «Sami wins the "best hair helmet contest"!...
yep... that' whie I asked him yesterday in the other thread: «coulde you tell me what kind of hair phollicle medicine do you use in order to habe susch an imponent hair (one of the beste aspects in your presentation...)?»
Jime... thanks for your answer... and youre englishe is mutch better than mine...
butt would you agree that we, as persons, habe a religious dimention seperated (previous) from an organized religion?
If yes, want would it bee the diferences from the "religious dimention" and the "spiritual dimention"? or would they be sinomimous?
The other snake chimes in. Your hate of the true God is clear in how you constantly have to bring in the Holy Spirit to insult him. Yet doesn't your own stone licking, pagan prophet speak of the Holy Spirit? So are you saying that the Holy Spirit which your idol worshipping messenger believed in is not the same Spirit that the true prophets and apostles proclaimed? It seems so in light of your constant blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Thanks for agreeing with us that Mo's god is not the true God but Satan who duped your messenger into following a lie which leads to hell.
And I am sure that Jalal and his group really enjoyed reading your disparaging remarks concerning his qualifications.
This is what happens to Muslims like Yahya who follow an ilah who takes pride in being the greatest deceiver of them all, a prophet who had no shame in breaking his own oaths, and who thinks prostituting women in the name of temporary marriages is moral.
Keep up the fantastic job, Yahya ibn Muta, since you show why people should never follow Mo or his taghut.
While Yahya has no compunction of speaking irreverantly and intemperately of the Holy Spirit, he just as easily gushes all over Muhammad, Husayn, and other creatures. How absolutely telling (see Romans 1:18ff.)
If you ever read some of his blog pieces in this vein, you will see what I mean. Warning: it is absolutely nauseating.
Who is Ben Malik? Some say he is Sam Shamoun, still others say that he is Samuel Zwemmer, or even Al Kindy come back from the dead.
But if you want to know who I think he is, I put my money on the view that says Ben Malik is Muhammad himself who was given a very temporary respite from Hades to warn his followers that he duped them, but only on condition of anonymity (hence the alias).
By the way, I should add: although it seems to be the orthodox view among Muslims around here that Ben Malik is Sam Shamoun, this can by no means be determined with certainty. After all, I have seen three or four different Muslims on this blog identify Malik with Shamoun, but since they all use different words and come at it from different angles and vantage points, there testimony can hardly be received as valid.
It might be okay to say as a matter of wishful thinking or faith that Malik and Shamoun are one and the same, but this idea can't claim any historical merit.
Also, the claim that some have made that Malik appears in various ways to be Sam Shamoun, such as by the way that he writes and by the fact that he provides links to Shamoun's articles (among others), is by no means conclusive. After all, according to a book I have that fell from the sky, it says that the appearance of Shamoun was put on Malik to leave Muslims to wander about in confusion.
Perhaps Allah is deceiving us into thinking that Ben Malik is Sam Shamoun, similar to the way he deceived billions of people into believing that Judas was Jesus.
I hate to complicate things, but have you considered that Allah could be tricking us into believing that he is deceiving us?
If that is the case - and how could any Muslim object in principle after already granting such a colossal act of deception on the part of Allah? - then this would mean that Jesus really did die on the cross after all. Wouldn't it?
You will see that the Shias agree with you that Ibn Taimiyah endorsed the satanic verses and they even quote from his books to prove it. Man, this is great stuff.
Is there any way to break this 2 hour and 20 minute break up into at least 2 parts?
I have tried to watch and listen several times and it always stops at around the half way point, around after 1 hour and 30 minutes.
Thanks
I am enjoying it so far, Dr. White is refuting Sami very well. Muslims don't seem to want to try and understand what Christianity fully teaches about Jesus as "the Son of God" ( the Qur'an calls someone who travels "the son of the road" and the tablet in heaven, "the mother of the books") The Son of God/ God the Son, means the Kalamat'allah (The Word of God) (John 1:1-5)) from all eternity who then, took on flesh in time and entered into time and flesh(John 1:14), to have conversation and relate to humanity, to teach them the gospel and be a model, and most of all to allow Himself to be killed by sinful people in order to be the perfect sacrifice for the sins of His people from all nations. Revelation 5:9; Matthew 1:21-23
The links to the articles that I posted were not written by me, if they were then I be very happy to identify myself as the author rather then hide myself behind a pseudonomose name like Shamoun does on many occasions. Here is Shamoun given a link to a article on a blog that he says he wrote but is using the identity of Ben Malik.
I respect the Bible and in the God of the Bible and believe in the H.Spirit. But if now someone is throwing insults at his religion then Shamoun/Ben Malik has got himself to blame for his behaviour. Especially after James White came on this blog and reproofed him for calling other "snakes" "liars".
"...I would like to say to Ben Malik, whoever you are: brother, your language is getting in the way of your message, big time. Constant use of terms like "snake" and "liar" and the constant denigration inherent in your language is reprehensible"
If you insult other people then they are going to do the same to you and instead of bringing people close to your faith they will repel you.
Hi David (not Wood) I've missed you my friend, hope everything is cool; family, health, etc.
As far as your link goes, Shamoun has used that name Ben Malik and I don;t think he has ever denied that. Yet you live under the impression that this is his nic. How do you know that isn't a nic which someone he knows uses and allowed him to write under?
And as I have said, I maybe Shamoun, I maybe his alter ego, I may even be his twin brother or sister. WHO CARES!
I did accept White's corrections at the time but, as I have said, there is a time to expose fools, liars, mockers, blasphemers just as the Bible says.
You happen to be one of those who need to be answered according to their folly since you think you are wise. Since you have nothing positive to contribute all you do is come here with your hit and runs, mentioning Shamoun every chance you get. Is Shamoun your other messenger whom you mention when you pray?
Do you say that there is no God but allah, and Muhammad is his messenger, but Shamoun is Muhammad's savior? Since you are so in love with Shamoun and since your life seems to be devoted entirely to him as opposed to Muhammad I can get him to sign your Quran for you. Send me your address so I can forward it to Shamoun.
Anyway, good to know that you are not that nameless Muslim who was too ashamed to attach his real name to those laughable replies.
It's a matter of time before Islam disappears for good. Thank God for that day!
And now the Christians are chiming in by making fun of the Muslims' hair - for the record, I'd like to say that I do not condone making fun of each others' physical appearances. This can create schisms which detract one another from the truth.
Unless, of course, Sami's okay with it. Then it's just friendly joking. :-) But I've seen nothing to that effect yet.
Doctor Nabeel... you're absolutelly righte... we should not habe been makking word-plays with Sami's haire... my question was absolutellie authentic... Sami's hair is magnifique, absolutelie magnifique... :)
no intention, at all, to bee rudd...
I even habe to sai I envy Sami's haire... and I thinke that he, eben iff he thinkes my question was not honest, was not offended with thate... his hair is magnific... :)
so... Sami: take a good care off that haire: iff it's a natural feature on that aspectt youre parents gave you greatt genes... iff you use any medicine to improve your's haire perfomance, please: share with otheres (who are not so luckie in that aspecte...) youre secrett...
Finalie: I really thinke that you, Sami, did nott listen to whate Doctor Wood saide in the debate..,
I actually meant nothing malicious by my comments about Sami's hair. It was just friendly joking (Being of Italian, Spanish and Afro-Caribbean decent I have a MASSIVE head of hair if I let it grow. I joke about myself in this regard all time). I've been teased for having a "hair-helmet" more times than I could possibly count! And I actually was being serious when I said he should keep it.
I guess I didn't realize at the time how that might come across, with no one here actually having seen me.
Sami--
If I at all offended you or hurt your feelings in any way I sincerely apologize. As much as I have taken great objection to the positions you hold in the past, I hope you will know I have no malice toward you as a person. It was just a joke from one guy with a massive shuck of hair, to another.
Nabeel,
If you would be so kind as to remove my previous comment, I would appreciate it (for some reason I am unable to access the trash-can feature to remove it myself). Thank you.
I would like to point out the inconsistency of every muslim apologist we have ever had.They like to quote the bible to try and disprove Jesus as God,yet this very same book clearly states Jesus is God,plain and simple.Why do they not take the whole book in context?Why do they want Jesus to have uttered the exact words I AM GOD!even though Jesus uttered the famous "I AM",they wont accept that or anything that says he is God at all.Even if Jesus had said in the bible "I AM GOD" does anyone here honestly think that todays muslims such as Sami would leave islam and believe in the true Jesus?No never instead they call him Isa,which the jews mockingly called jesus after the prophet Esau,in the New Testament Book of Hebrews in Chapter 12, verse 15-16, depicts Esau as unspiritual for thoughtlessly throwing away his birthright,as the jews considered him rebellious,they mokingly called Jesus after him for jokes,and muhammad took this as his real name or one of his followers.When we quote any of pauls letters,the muslims will say he is a false prophet,yet it should be their job in the search of truth to take the whole book as you find it,as every word in our bible is "God breathed" and is God's word.Yet they pick and choose what they want from the bible to try and prove there case.Yet they say it is corrupted at the same time,and they quote it when trying to prove something,how twofaced if this?Cant they say no matter what you show us we wont believe,they should be honest about this,any sane person can see the bible has not been changed,listen to the bart e v j white debate and you can see James white teach him a real lesson.If bart was to try and do to the quran what he is attacking the bible for,muslims would call for him to be killed,as he would totally expose the quran in the publics eyes.All the muslims know the bible states Jesus is God,why dont they start to say we just dont believe it no matter what it says,instead of playing these silly games.They make themselves look really silly in the eyes of others,they wont believe even if Jesus came today and said im God,they still wouldnt believe.
"Behold He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
I know this might get in the way of a perfectly bad argument, but all you have to do if you are a Muslim is ignore the above passage or come up with some specious way of re-interpreting or otherwise rejecting it out of hand.
Attention all name callers: cut it out! It is childish behavior that is ineffective and offensive. Of course, you intend to be offensive, but is that really accomplishing anything constructive? Are you trying to win an argument at all costs and prove yourself right, or are you trying to faithfully witness to the grace of Christ?
I know this will not dissuade anyone at all from caustic behavior, but how about those who name the name of Jesus start speaking up when the fellow believers cross the line here. I'm ashamed at some of the ungodly aggression towards Muslims than I am observing on this blog. Quit with the lame excuse, "I'm going to give you some of your own medicine..." garbage. How about trying to turn the other cheek. Doesn't that sound a little bit like... let's see... Jesus? Yes, I believe it does!
How about it people, do you think you might want to start practicing living out the Gospel in public? If you can't do it here I doubt seriously you would have been very successful in the Roman Coliseum.
Just one opinion from an inconsistent shallow Christian brother.
PS. Hello Nazam. I hope you are doing well and that your studies are progressing along smoothly. Things are good here.
Could you PLEASE remove my first comment in this thread. I have spent the last 40 minutes trying to get the trash-can feature to work so I can remove it, but it's not operative for me. Thanks.
I guess I was not prepared for partaking in discussions with insults and all kinds of unfortunate behavior, while still remaining above that type of behavior.
I fear I may have participated in making the Gospel appear a distasteful thing :-(
David and Nabeel, God bless as you continue in your important work.
It's been nice talking with everyone around here. I will now remove myself from the priviledge of commenting. May God have mercy on me. Bye.
lol lol guys, take it easy, im not offended by the hair comments!!!!!!!!!!!! one of my close friends is always telling me to cut it. this debate was back in november, my hair was in medium phase back then, i got even more hair now, i just want it to grow and grow, i dont plan to have it cut until start of summer time, ill shave it all off.
as for hair products, no, i dont use any, its all natural, i just put water, and comb comb comb, although i do sometimes think maybe i should put some gel, but some say gel can cause hair loss after a while, so just use the water and the comb.
there you go, hope you have enjoyed that, now i want to talk about David's muscles, i have started going to the gym for the past month, Nabeel and David what advice would you give for gym goers? Nabeel you have the good tall cut physique, David you got the more bulky muscular look. lol.
El-Cid: Please don't stop posting here. That's exactly what the enemy wants. We all have our moments, that is why we have the precious blood of Jesus that cleanses us and restores us to fellowship.
We need your portion here. It is inevitable that as we share the gospel with passion, we can get caught up in the heat of the moment, but at least you have a repentant heart.
May we all turn back to the Lord in humility as quickly as you have done. None of us is perfect, save the perfect lamb of God Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
Seeing that Sami has linked to my comments here in his recent blasphemy against the Holy Spirit I thought I comment so as to further illustrate what Islam does to people's minds. He quotes portions of a dialogue that supposedly took place between Shamoun and I assume some Muslim where Sami claims that Shamoun denied ever using the name Ben Malik. I invite people to go and read the words that are supposed to be from Shamoun to see that even in what Shamoun posted he never denied that he has ever used this name, ever. He denies that he used this name in the context of a discussion with some unnamed individual or in that particular forum. Sami just wanted to find another excuse to blaspheme the Holy Spirit and in so doing give further prove that the same wicked Spirit that molested Muhammad is now molesting his mind.
So Sami, nice try but all you managed to do was provide further evidence why you are a dishonest blasphemer, just as Keith Truth and others have proven. It seems that you have taken Mo's sunna to the extreme since you are now doing your best to imitate his illiteracy by your misreading of people's words and the context in which they are made.
Hey man if you take pride in being just as illiterate as Muhammad then more power to you. hehehe
I actully thought Dr.James White Had A Better Hair Style Then Sami.
Though Since We Are On The Topic Of How The Debators Look Like I Would Put Nabeel As The Brad Pitt Of The Debate World Sami As The Colin Farell David Wood As Mickey Rourke.
Well it's greatt to see how things are going... spetially when Jesus himself called Herod a "fox" (Lk. 13,32)... obviously we have to go abobe words and undestand what He means: Herod was a stealer, a dubious, an hipocrite person...
But I saw, and re-saw, all the posts, about Sami hair, and no one was, by anie means, rudde... so: El-Cid and BlackBaron: don't desapear... no one was makking foony to Sami (eben when he's foonie...) but, in a spetial way, saying: "what a great hair..."... and I would, defenitely, habe saide the same thing I said to Sammi, if it was doctor White who had such a tropical forest of hair in his head...
but yes: we all should be more carefull withe these thingues... nott because they can bringue bad reputattion to Christianity but juste because they're intrisiquely against Jesus' message... and when
Semper wrote: “Jesus never claimed to be God Almighty?
"Behold He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
I know this might get in the way of a perfectly bad argument, but all you have to do if you are a Muslim is ignore the above passage or come up with some specious way of re-interpreting or otherwise rejecting it out of hand.”
Hows about this one:
Acts 1: 9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? THIS JESUS, who has been taken up from you into heaven, WILL COME IN JUST THE SAME WAY AS YOU HAVE WATCHED HIM GO INTO HEAVEN." 12Then they returned to Jerusalem FROM THE MOUNT CALLED OLIVES, WHICH IS NEAR JERUSALEM, a Sabbath day's journey away.
So here we see that it is said that Yeshua will come in the exact same way as he has gone into heaven. We also see that he went up FROM THE MOUNT OF OLIVES! Now here is the prophecy of YHWH coming to His people.
Zecharyah 14:3Then YHWH will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4 In that day HIS FEET WILL STAND ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES, WHICH IS IN FRONT OF JERUSALEM ON THE EAST; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south… 9And YHWH will be king over all the earth; in that day YHWH will be ONE, and His name ONE.
Folkes: I'm bery glad to see thate this subject of Sammi Zawatari's hair finished bery well...
with Osama Abedulah perhaps we were already discusting if pre-pubescent girls (like baby Aiesha when married Muhammad and hadd sex withe him for the firste time) also have hair in their vagina...
Some mighte miss those thingues, but I really don'te, eben when I really habe a nostalgia for him and his obcession with ben malik's true/false identitie...
Yes, Nakdimon. True. True. The Zechariah passage is certainly a good cross-reference establishing Christ's deity - a comparison the apostle's would have been able to make when Christ uttered the words found in Acts 1. (This is a point Muslims often miss; the context in which Christ spoke was that of first century Israel, where the people were steeped in the law and the prophets. In other words, Jesus didn't have to parrot the exact words Muslims lay down for Him; rather, He could speak in such a way that those who searched the Scriptures would be able to recognize who He was claiming to be.)
Yet, I was thinking of the contention that Jesus never directly declared Himself to be God Almighty. Certainly Acts 1 is direct. The only reply that can be made to this is to say that these words were not actually spoken by Jesus, but there is no textual basis for such a denial; all the manuscripts agree. They might also try and re-interpret the passage, but since I don't have the same active imagination as some Muslims, I just have to wait with baited breath to see if any of them will apply their eisegetical hands to it. Just in case they do give it a shot, it should be like watching "exegetical cats on hot textual bricks".
Sami Zaatari has just posted an article at Muslim Responses that attempts to prove that the Holy Spirit whom Christians worship and adore is actually Satan, and not the Holy Spirit of the Bible or the Qur'an.
Nabeel I am sorry if my comment was deemed as Blasphemous, the comment was not written intended to offend the average Christian, but rather as a response to an old adversary. My apologies also extended to every other christian offended by this post, also note my behaviour is something I am accountable alone, so please take this out on me and not on any other muslims.
It's good to see that of late people have been willing to humble themselves enough to admit their wrong-doings. No wonder it's called apologetics :) Ok bad joke. Yahya, good to see you again. I wrote you an email a few weeks ago, but you never replied. You had invited me to dialogue via email. I hope that we can do so.
I have read ur article. That was well written. I loved the last part though. That sounded a lot like Osama arguing about the rock in the Ka'aba and Peter. LOL!
I am current doing a modual on Paul and Jesus. Unfortunetly I am quite behind my course work as I've got two essays due in a couple of weeks.
One is, "Discuss the view that Jesus is best understood as a prophet" and the other one is, which I haven't yet started, "Is there a central theame to the Kingdom of God sayings".
I haven't yet decided what to do my next modual on but I'm thinking on "the epistle to the Romans" but I would also like to do some Old Testament theology.
The problem is that at the Uni that I am studying, they lack Old Testament scholars so there isn't much for Old Testament studies.
Semper Paratus said : "It looks like Sami and Osama fell from the same tree, employing as they do the same kind of "logic" and methodology."
...or lack thereof !
:)
Here's an example the kinds of conversations we have with Muslim apologists:
"Why are you a muslim?" "Because the Quran is the word of God" "Why should I believe it's the word of God?" "Because it is perfectly preserved" "So is Lord of the Rings, should I believe that too?" "No, the Lord of the Rings doesn't claim to be the word of God" "So I should believe any book that is preserved and claims to be the word of God?" "Come on, there are so many miracles in the Qur'an, things that noone knew about" "And what about pythagoras (570BCE) who determined the size of the earth and its shape, should we believe that he was a prophet?" "I don't know, but look, the Quran describes the stages of embryological development" "Actually, the Quran gets it wrong, it puts bones before flesh when it's actually the other way around, and the bible already talks about this in the book of Job" "I don't believe the bible" "Why?" "It's corrupted." "Where?" "1 john 5:7, Mark ch 16 long ending, John 7:53-8:11." "Those weren't in the original manuscripts, we already know" "See it's corrupted !" "No, modern bibles mention this in their footnotes" "Jesus wasn't the Son of God" "Why not?" "Because Allah cannot have a Son Surah 6:101" "But Allah can have a Son - 39:4" "We cannot worship three gods - 5:119" "We don't believe in three Gods, we only believe in one God" "No you dont, you worship the trinity, that's three Gods" "No, we believe one God - Mark 12:29,revealed in three coeternal, coequal persons, namely the Father (John 5:18), Son(John 5:23) (Rev 22:13-16), and Spirit and Mary is not one of them" "Jesus can't be God or the Son of God because God cannot die" "I agree God cannot die, but God took on human flesh" "This is blasphemy!" "Why?" "Because now you are saying that God can go to the toilet and get tired and get hungry" "Jesus voluntarily emptied Himself of His Divine perogatives and was willing to be restricted by the flesh" "Haha, if Jesus died, and Jesus is God, who was running the Universe?" "God the Father" "What?" "God the Father" "But if Jesus is God then He is the Father and Son and..." "No, Christ is the Son of God" "You Christians say we believe 1 God, but then you contradict yourself because if Jesus is God and the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God, that's 3 Gods" "No, 1 God" "How can 3 Gods be one God????" "No, I never said three Gods can be one God" "Yes you said..." "3 persons, share the one divine Being of God" "1+1+1 = 3 not 1!" "I agree" "No you say 1+1+1 = 1" "No, it'd be more accurate to say 1*1*1 = 1" "Why do I need Jesus to die on the cross for me anyway? Your God is so weak He can't just forgive." "Well He could just forgive, but that would undermine His attribute of Justice." "You Christians just think that Jesus died for all of your sins and then you can do whatever you want" "No we don't believe we can do whatever we want. We're commanded by scripture to live a Holy manner of life" "But if you sin, you'll still go to paradise!" "But you just said that Allah forgives without any form of propitiation, so by your logic, muslims sin and go to paradise as well." "Well, we don't need a Savior. Why should I have to pay for Adam's sin? I didn't eat the apple" "Well the bible never says Adam ate the apple. So you think that no man can ever be responsible for another man's sins?" "Right, Allah is so just and merciful he makes the evil men pay for their own sins. Christianity is so stupid, it let's evil people get off without having to pay for anything. Imagine what would happen if the courts did that." "Actually the bible teaches us to first make amends with those we have sinned against before we come before God. So if you think that no man can pay for another man's sins, why will Christians and Jews have to pay for Muslims sins?" "What?" "Why should I pay for a muslim's sins. If you rape someone, why should I have to pay for your crime?" "haha the bible teaches rape" "No it doesn't, please answer the question, why should I have to pay for your sins if every man is responsible for their own sins?" "That's a lie! We don't beleive that!" "Sahih Muslim says in Book 037, Number 6668 Abu Burda reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to 'Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him)? I said: Yes." "I have to go" "Ok bye"
Sami Zaatari isnt a good debater, because he has to mis- represent his opponent's postion all the time. I was once listening to him debate sam shamoun and shamoun had to repeat himself over and over because sami was trying to mis represent what sam said and Christianity. To be honest Zaatari isnt qualified to debate and shouldnt be taken seriously.
I assume you are refering to Sam's brief analysis of the Zaatari vs. White debate when you say: "Sam came to rescue of james but he failed to answer the points raised by Sami."
Actually, as Sam himself pointed out in his article, Dr. White didn't need rescuing: "Dr. White soundly refuted Zaatari’s irrational arguments and distortion of Biblical truth."
In addition, Sam wasn't trying to address every point raised by Sami in the debate, he was only looking at "a few particular egregious errors that Zaatari made".
Indeed, there was no need for Sam to address everything that Zaatari said, because "Zaatari’s deliberate manhandling of the Bible’s teachings have been exposed and documented countless number of times on our website and by others..."
royal son you are an idiot every single argument you made goes back at the bible. ur not an atheist for Gods sake. you try to talk against Islam you actually defame your religion since Christianity makes the same claim.
george: another idiot what shabbir ally wears isnt for all. Infact india is the inventor of pajamas and thus pants and its permissible to wear that. wow why dont you wear turbans like your jesus then??
I was almost persuaded by your remarks to become a Muslim. If you had only called one more person an idiot it probably would have made the difference for me.
Here is a link from a person who provides documentation that Sami Zaatari has threatened to have him and his family killed, even beheaded:
http://www.youtube.com/user/SamiZaatariExposed
You can see the emails that Sami left threatening this guy using some of the foulest language. Time to have this kid exposed for being what he truly is.
"royal son you are an idiot every single argument you made goes back at the bible. ur not an atheist for Gods sake. you try to talk against Islam you actually defame your religion since Christianity makes the same claim."
Sir - In case you noticed, the conversation I posted was a hypothetical one, and it is a response to what Muslims claim Christianity teaches. Naturally I would refer to the bible since it is the bible that is being questioned and taken out of context by the muslim. It's like if I were to speak about verses in the Qur'an, I would naturally expect a Muslim a respond with verses from the Qur'an.
The point was not an attempt to prove everything is true just because the bible says so, it was simply to respond to mischaracteriztions of the bible itself.
Note also that I did refer to a verse from the Qur'an in the conversation when talking about whether Allah can or cannot have a son.
I would suggest in the future, that you interact with the points that are mentioned rather than resorting to name-calling. I am sure you are more than intelligent enough to handle such discussions.
This was clearly won by Dr.White because he did make a case,made the proper question that must be answered like "can a simple prophet say all what Jesus said?" Sami said "then your logic is that if a prophet can't do that he is god" well he is something else, so let's say we put that as a lil win for our cause because it proves Jesus is not a simple prophet(so at thos momment Islam doctrine is destroyed),but when we keep making this "lil" wins 1 after another well we can't help thinking that White/Apostles/Jews(hhuh Pharapheses) are right and u have no case. Yet the very effort to disprove the divinity of Jesus using the Gospels is nonsense for me,even more when Jesus says he is his bogotten son,because even if Sami proves that in some parts he clearly says he is not god(which he didn't) in others jesus leaves very clear he is god, like when Thomas tells him my Lord My God which actually is more powerful because it's the climax of Jesus personal teachings to them., i think the best way a muslim can go throught this is using the argument we hear all time "It's corrupted" i have seen interviews to Zakir Naik and the fastest word that comes to my mind is "populist" because like Sami they use the gospel in the very parts they need leaving out the context but even so they have to misinterpretate them in order to make some case (even if doing this puts in trouble their own religion like Naik using John 14:24 to "prove" Jesus isn't god "ignoring" that the verse they use to claim that muhamamad is predicted in the gospel is being put in real danger when u read 2 verses below 14:26.Then when Sami started to say that the strong argument was that Mary had to know he was God, It was obviously a last minute thing it came to his mind XD.. because how do you expect Mary to fully understand what even the apostles couldn't until the last momment and i think they fully understood it when the spirit came to them and not before.Also i don't think in that time everyone had a holy torah in his house,yet even if they knew about it, they couldn't fully understand what was this Messiah about, they knew he was supposed to be their king, and the others predictions maybe they didn't took them as predictions at that time, i mean they showed their lack of knowledge of the scriptures in many ways, it's easy for us to judge them now because we have the full book and biblical studies, biblical schools etc so it's easy to join the dots, but i think it wasn't so easy for them (that's my opinion and i'm not an scholar so Sami if u read this do not quote me as that "trinitarian" u said or well u actually dind't say his name) I think that Jesus was very right when he said John 3:12"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" Which also makes a huge difference between him knowing heavenly things by his own and Muhammad when he is asked about the spirit Sura 17:85.
75 comments:
indeed it was one sided, white hardly responded to any of the 6 attributes, and gave a terrible response concerning Mary. Shamoun's 'brief' commentary is only a further proof of that, Shamoun knew he had to do something to bail dr. white out. nearly 5000 have viewed it now, the majority of the comments says it all, :) one sided indeedio!
No sounde???
Am I the only one who is amazed when muslims talk about passages where Jesus mentions "the Father", without seeing any implications here?
"I love this verse. Christians quote this to prove Jesus was God, but they don't quote the next one."
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9eF3TfNMTDg/Rw9P1xy8AMI/AAAAAAAAHYk/CM-HTmogMCs/s1600/motivational_poster_irony.jpg
Sami if you were in india in cow boy style in any debates or in any program u wud have been cut into pieces.Even zakir naik who comes in short pant and funny cap is been critized by mullas here.If u want to be a star then u shud know that only lying for islam is not enough but come up like 7th century man liek shabir .best of luck
Sami- don't forget to explain yourself in the post immediately before this, Censoring the Christian Debater. We're all wondering what you have to say in response.
The video begins with "the FATHER is greater than I". How can there be any question that Jesus believed he was the Son of God?
I never understood how Muslims could maintain that Jesus never claimed to be God, when the Jewish authorities condemned Jesus to death on the basis of BLASPHEMY (Claiming to be the Son of God)!
Ariel said: «I never understood how Muslims could maintain that Jesus never claimed to be God, when the Jewish authorities condemned Jesus to death on the basis of BLASPHEMY (Claiming to be the Son of God)!»...
either:
# 1: claiming that other peoplle in the Bible are called (not in the samme sence... but they'll neber say this to you...) "son of God";
# 2: claiming that being "Son of God" is not the samme as "God";
# 3: saying those passages habe been corrupted and that Jesus neber spoke them...
you may choose and picke... it's like goingue to a Baskin Robbins of ignoranse...
Surprise, surprise. Here is what I found Yahya Haydour Seymour posting on a Christian blog concerning Jalal Abualrub:
Peace,
Dr. White may have won that debate hands down as well as his rather pathetic debate with the Pseudo-Shaykh Jalal Abu alRuh,
However it’s a bit like me going out and debating a Pseudo-Christian Scholar like Jimmy Swaggart and boasting over a cheap victory like that.
Shabir Ally wiped the floor with White in the second debate, and White kept throwing in Red Herrings in their first debate.
By: Yahya Hayder Seymour on April 23, 2008 at 9:33 am, at http://rdtwot.wordpress.com/2008/03/22/no-scholars-for-you/
Wow, so Jalal is a pseudo-shaykh on the same level as a Jimmy Swaggart. And yet you have someone like Sami who teams up with a Shia who dislikes Salafi shaykhs like Jalal.
And it is only in Yahya's miraj that Shabir beat White twice.
Well, I'm happy that Yahya (unlike most Muslims) recognizes that Jimmy Swaggart was a lame debate opponent. The most popular debate in the Middle East is Deedat vs. Swaggart, so many Muslims clearly have no problem declaring victory over a horrible opponent and proclaiming this as proof that Islam is true.
What was the context of Yahya's first sentence? What was the other debate that James won hands down?
Yahya (glade to see your name backe hear...) supposely said: «Shabir Ally wiped the floor with White in the second debate»...
1) Yahya: dide you really say thate? I can believe in itt...
2) Yahya: were you seriously spoken? I can not believe in itt...
The first debate which yahya has in mind was the one on the inspiration of the NT, the second was on whether Jesus chose to die as a vicarious sacrifice on behalf of God's people.
Here are some articles written on the commentaries of Ben Malik's reviews of Shabir Ally and James White Debates, I found at Call to Monotheism website. The articles also include the links to the orginal articles that Ben Malik wrote as himself, Sam Shamoun.
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/sam_shamoun_s_inconsistency__obfuscation_and_red_herrings__a_commentary_on_sam_shamoun_s__shabir_ally_s_inconsistency_of_criteria
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/lack_of_atonement_in_luke_acts
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/shamounion_straw_men_and_obfuscations__a_critical_commentary_on_sam_shamoun_s__the_purpose_and_cause_of_jesus__death
hey snake nazzam, are you taking credit for those replies? hehehe
I will inform your hero Shamoun since he has been planning on addressing that anonymous kid who wasn't courageous to include his name. I am sure he will be glad to know that it was you, snake nazam, who wrote them.
Hi David Wood, congratulations for your blogs.
Sorry for the off-topic; I'm not interested in muslims, but in philosophical criticisms of atheism and metaphysical naturalism.
One of my particular interest is in philosophically sound replies to the new atheist, like Peter Williams' book A Sceptic Guide to Atheism or Edward Feser's book "The Last Superstition", the latter named by ForeWord Magazine a finalist for the Book of the Year Award in the field of religion:
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2009/03/foreword-on-tls.html
Your writings in the website "Answering Infidels" are very good, and I'd like to ask you if you have new articles, papers or reviews on atheism or methaphysical naturalism. I hope you can keep writing more articles on it. (in fact, I suggest you to write a complete book on it)
Also, have you published or are you going to publish a book or paper on the "problem of evil"? Are they available online? Both the "problem of evil" and the "problem of free-will" are very interesting philosophical topics for me.
I'm not religious, but I have a strong interest in spirituality and philosophy of religion and mind.
Thanks!
Jime
I wonder why this blog always has commentary on debates........
Bfoali said: "I wonder why this blog always has commentary on debates........"
Uh, maybe because the people who run the blog as well as several of the people who comment here are all debaters? (Just a guess on my part.)
Since the debate about Muhammad is off, I will make an audio rebuttal to Sami’s claims in debate with Dr White and an assessment of the debate with me on the same subject. I will take his false claims one by one and shoot them down and expose the misinterpretation and total ignorance of Sami when it comes to the Biblical text. It’s time to put an end to Sami’s deceptive tactics. He throws anything and everything out there in an audio debate and hopes that it sticks. He wont have a written debate with a set format because then he will have to be exegetical and he plainly sucks at that. So keep an eye out for the audio I will make.
Jime... welcome to this blog... hoppe to see you againe around here!!!
Just some questionne (I'm also bery interested in the connection between religions and spiritualitie...): biy aislating "religion" and "spirituality", do you agree that a person can be a "spiritual being" without being a "religious being"?
ore do you think he just can ignore this latter dimention and live the first one?
ore bye religion do you mean an "institutional organization of spirituality" or an "institutional organization of the personal religious dimention"?
thankes...
Sami wins the "best hair helmet contest"!
As far as the debate goes, Sami just wasn't listening to Dr. White's points.
Nice work Dr. White.
Hi Fernando,
Yes, by religion, I mean an institutional organization of spirituality that includes a predetermined set of belief regarding questions as God, souls, afterlife, or similar topics etc.
By spirituality, I mean a wider concept, that is, simply the search of a spiritual dimension (provided it exist), not necessarily limited to an institutional organization of of it.
I'm not saying that supporters of a "religion" (as refered to above) are not spiritual; my point is only that I don't limit the concept of spirituality to organized religion.
For example, regarding the afterlife (a topic that I've been researching for the last 7 years), I have an empirical approach to it. I mean, I don't "believe it" due to some set of predetermined religious beliefs, but that I try that my belief on it depends on the empirical evidence supporting it (provided that it exists, of course).
Some metaphysical naturalists assume that if you accept an afterlife (or have an interest in it), then you're a religious fundamentalist or a cover christian, or are a coward that is afraid of death. However, there are contemporary secular philosophers that accept an afterlife (or the possibility of it), on purely empirical ground, some examples:
-Philosopher Robert Almeder, professor of philosophy at Georgia State University. See an interview with him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZhMDU9GcVg
And:
http://www.skeptiko.com/index.php?id=23
-Philosopher Neal Grossman, associate professor of philosophy in University of Illinois at Chicago. Hear an interview with him:
http://www.skeptiko.com/index.php?id=21
-Stephen Braude, Professor of Philosophy and Chair of the Department at the University of Maryland Baltimore County:
http://userpages.umbc.edu/~braude/
They accept (with more or less conviction) the evidence suggestive of an afterlife, on purely empirical grounds. I include myself in that group.
As I accept the evidence for it (at least, the best of it), I'm intellectually forced to research about a spiritual dimesion of human beings and the philosophical implications of that evidence; but I'm not (and I don't want be) limited by a specific religious framework to do that research.
I hope my english is good enough to make clear my opinion.
Jime
What was the context of Yahya's first sentence? What was the other debate that James won hands down?
The Debate was the one on the inspiration of the N.T in Norfolk 2008.
Thanks for posting these links to my comments Sam =)
David: Well, I'm happy that Yahya (unlike most Muslims) recognizes that Jimmy Swaggart was a lame debate opponent. The most popular debate in the Middle East is Deedat vs. Swaggart, so many Muslims clearly have no problem declaring victory over a horrible opponent and proclaiming this as proof that Islam is true.
Well Professor Wood, I wouldn't say you can verify that "Most Muslims" claim that the victory of the late Shaykh Deedat (ra) over Swaggart was proof that Islam is true. Neither would I say that Deedat's debate with Swaggart is the most popular in the Mid East, during the time I lived in three Mid East countries I never saw it on sale once.
Sam Shamoun: hey snake nazzam, are you taking credit for those replies? hehehe
I will inform your hero Shamoun since he has been planning on addressing that anonymous kid who wasn't courageous to include his name. I am sure he will be glad to know that it was you, snake nazam, who wrote them.
Nice to see the Holy Spirit is back calling people snakes and refering to itself in third person.
Yahya:
Nice to see the Holy Spirit is back calling people snakes and refering to itself in third person.
That's pretty hilarious... well, except for the blasphemy. Leave out the blasphemy next time, and you'll get props for hilarity.
What I do think is hilarious is that Muslims on this blog are rather obsessed with the identity of Ben Malik. It's become an eternal struggle within this blog... like David said, I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried. :-)
Yahya... dispite you habent answer my questiones before (too busy I guess...) here's a simple one: were you the person who presentted Sami Zaatari in the beggining of thee debate with Doctor White?
Iff Yahya keeps is actitude hand don't answer, can anyone gibe me a answer? thanks...
BlackBaron said: «Sami wins the "best hair helmet contest"!...
yep... that' whie I asked him yesterday in the other thread: «coulde you tell me what kind of hair phollicle medicine do you use in order to habe susch an imponent hair (one of the beste aspects in your presentation...)?»
Jime... thanks for your answer... and youre englishe is mutch better than mine...
butt would you agree that we, as persons, habe a religious dimention seperated (previous) from an organized religion?
If yes, want would it bee the diferences from the "religious dimention" and the "spiritual dimention"? or would they be sinomimous?
thanks...
The other snake chimes in. Your hate of the true God is clear in how you constantly have to bring in the Holy Spirit to insult him. Yet doesn't your own stone licking, pagan prophet speak of the Holy Spirit? So are you saying that the Holy Spirit which your idol worshipping messenger believed in is not the same Spirit that the true prophets and apostles proclaimed? It seems so in light of your constant blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Thanks for agreeing with us that Mo's god is not the true God but Satan who duped your messenger into following a lie which leads to hell.
And I am sure that Jalal and his group really enjoyed reading your disparaging remarks concerning his qualifications.
This is what happens to Muslims like Yahya who follow an ilah who takes pride in being the greatest deceiver of them all, a prophet who had no shame in breaking his own oaths, and who thinks prostituting women in the name of temporary marriages is moral.
Keep up the fantastic job, Yahya ibn Muta, since you show why people should never follow Mo or his taghut.
While Yahya has no compunction of speaking irreverantly and intemperately of the Holy Spirit, he just as easily gushes all over Muhammad, Husayn, and other creatures. How absolutely telling (see Romans 1:18ff.)
If you ever read some of his blog pieces in this vein, you will see what I mean. Warning: it is absolutely nauseating.
so....who is Ben Malik?
Bfoali,
Who is Ben Malik? Some say he is Sam Shamoun, still others say that he is Samuel Zwemmer, or even Al Kindy come back from the dead.
But if you want to know who I think he is, I put my money on the view that says Ben Malik is Muhammad himself who was given a very temporary respite from Hades to warn his followers that he duped them, but only on condition of anonymity (hence the alias).
By the way, I should add: although it seems to be the orthodox view among Muslims around here that Ben Malik is Sam Shamoun, this can by no means be determined with certainty. After all, I have seen three or four different Muslims on this blog identify Malik with Shamoun, but since they all use different words and come at it from different angles and vantage points, there testimony can hardly be received as valid.
It might be okay to say as a matter of wishful thinking or faith that Malik and Shamoun are one and the same, but this idea can't claim any historical merit.
Also, the claim that some have made that Malik appears in various ways to be Sam Shamoun, such as by the way that he writes and by the fact that he provides links to Shamoun's articles (among others), is by no means conclusive. After all, according to a book I have that fell from the sky, it says that the appearance of Shamoun was put on Malik to leave Muslims to wander about in confusion.
Perhaps Allah is deceiving us into thinking that Ben Malik is Sam Shamoun, similar to the way he deceived billions of people into believing that Judas was Jesus.
Speaking of Judas and Jesus...
I hate to complicate things, but have you considered that Allah could be tricking us into believing that he is deceiving us?
If that is the case - and how could any Muslim object in principle after already granting such a colossal act of deception on the part of Allah? - then this would mean that Jesus really did die on the cross after all. Wouldn't it?
This is for brother David Wood. David, if you go here to this link,
http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/tahreef/en/chap9.php
You will see that the Shias agree with you that Ibn Taimiyah endorsed the satanic verses and they even quote from his books to prove it. Man, this is great stuff.
Is there any way to break this 2 hour and 20 minute break up into at least 2 parts?
I have tried to watch and listen several times and it always stops at around the half way point, around after 1 hour and 30 minutes.
Thanks
I am enjoying it so far, Dr. White is refuting Sami very well. Muslims don't seem to want to try and understand what Christianity fully teaches about Jesus as "the Son of God" ( the Qur'an calls someone who travels "the son of the road" and the tablet in heaven, "the mother of the books") The Son of God/ God the Son, means the Kalamat'allah (The Word of God) (John 1:1-5)) from all eternity who then, took on flesh in time and entered into time and flesh(John 1:14), to have conversation and relate to humanity, to teach them the gospel and be a model, and most of all to allow Himself to be killed by sinful people in order to be the perfect sacrifice for the sins of His people from all nations. Revelation 5:9; Matthew 1:21-23
Then, He proved Himself to be the Son of God/God in the Flesh by raising Himself from the dead.
John 10:18
The links to the articles that I posted were not written by me, if they were then I be very happy to identify myself as the author rather then hide myself behind a pseudonomose name like Shamoun does on many occasions. Here is Shamoun given a link to a article on a blog that he says he wrote but is using the identity of Ben Malik.
http://www.formermuslims.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1082&p=12412
I respect the Bible and in the God of the Bible and believe in the H.Spirit. But if now someone is throwing insults at his religion then Shamoun/Ben Malik has got himself to blame for his behaviour. Especially after James White came on this blog and reproofed him for calling other "snakes" "liars".
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2008/10/yahya-hayder-seymours-first-defense-of.html?showComment=1224472680000#c8536360684515262600
"...I would like to say to Ben Malik, whoever you are: brother, your language is getting in the way of your message, big time. Constant use of terms like "snake" and "liar" and the constant denigration inherent in your language is reprehensible"
If you insult other people then they are going to do the same to you and instead of bringing people close to your faith they will repel you.
Hi David (not Wood) I've missed you my friend, hope everything is cool; family, health, etc.
Hey the snake chimes in once again.
As far as your link goes, Shamoun has used that name Ben Malik and I don;t think he has ever denied that. Yet you live under the impression that this is his nic. How do you know that isn't a nic which someone he knows uses and allowed him to write under?
And as I have said, I maybe Shamoun, I maybe his alter ego, I may even be his twin brother or sister. WHO CARES!
I did accept White's corrections at the time but, as I have said, there is a time to expose fools, liars, mockers, blasphemers just as the Bible says.
You happen to be one of those who need to be answered according to their folly since you think you are wise. Since you have nothing positive to contribute all you do is come here with your hit and runs, mentioning Shamoun every chance you get. Is Shamoun your other messenger whom you mention when you pray?
Do you say that there is no God but allah, and Muhammad is his messenger, but Shamoun is Muhammad's savior? Since you are so in love with Shamoun and since your life seems to be devoted entirely to him as opposed to Muhammad I can get him to sign your Quran for you. Send me your address so I can forward it to Shamoun.
Anyway, good to know that you are not that nameless Muslim who was too ashamed to attach his real name to those laughable replies.
It's a matter of time before Islam disappears for good. Thank God for that day!
And now the Christians are chiming in by making fun of the Muslims' hair - for the record, I'd like to say that I do not condone making fun of each others' physical appearances. This can create schisms which detract one another from the truth.
Unless, of course, Sami's okay with it. Then it's just friendly joking. :-) But I've seen nothing to that effect yet.
Doctor Nabeel... you're absolutelly righte... we should not habe been makking word-plays with Sami's haire... my question was absolutellie authentic... Sami's hair is magnifique, absolutelie magnifique... :)
no intention, at all, to bee rudd...
I even habe to sai I envy Sami's haire... and I thinke that he, eben iff he thinkes my question was not honest, was not offended with thate... his hair is magnific... :)
so... Sami: take a good care off that haire: iff it's a natural feature on that aspectt youre parents gave you greatt genes... iff you use any medicine to improve your's haire perfomance, please: share with otheres (who are not so luckie in that aspecte...) youre secrett...
Finalie: I really thinke that you, Sami, did nott listen to whate Doctor Wood saide in the debate..,
I agree. As far as I'm concerned, I am no better than a muslim, and it is only by the grace of God that my heart was changed from stone to flesh.
May the Lord bless the Muslims with the truth of the gospel, the redemption of Christ, and the power and life of the Holy Spirit.
Nabeel,
I actually meant nothing malicious by my comments about Sami's hair. It was just friendly joking (Being of Italian, Spanish and Afro-Caribbean decent I have a MASSIVE head of hair if I let it grow. I joke about myself in this regard all time). I've been teased for having a "hair-helmet" more times than I could possibly count! And I actually was being serious when I said he should keep it.
I guess I didn't realize at the time how that might come across, with no one here actually having seen me.
Sami--
If I at all offended you or hurt your feelings in any way I sincerely apologize. As much as I have taken great objection to the positions you hold in the past, I hope you will know I have no malice toward you as a person. It was just a joke from one guy with a massive shuck of hair, to another.
Nabeel,
If you would be so kind as to remove my previous comment, I would appreciate it (for some reason I am unable to access the trash-can feature to remove it myself). Thank you.
I would like to point out the inconsistency of every muslim apologist we have ever had.They like to quote the bible to try and disprove Jesus as God,yet this very same book clearly states Jesus is God,plain and simple.Why do they not take the whole book in context?Why do they want Jesus to have uttered the exact words I AM GOD!even though Jesus uttered the famous "I AM",they wont accept that or anything that says he is God at all.Even if Jesus had said in the bible "I AM GOD" does anyone here honestly think that todays muslims such as Sami would leave islam and believe in the true Jesus?No never instead they call him Isa,which the jews mockingly called jesus after the prophet Esau,in the New Testament Book of Hebrews in Chapter 12, verse 15-16, depicts Esau as unspiritual for thoughtlessly throwing away his birthright,as the jews considered him rebellious,they mokingly called Jesus after him for jokes,and muhammad took this as his real name or one of his followers.When we quote any of pauls letters,the muslims will say he is a false prophet,yet it should be their job in the search of truth to take the whole book as you find it,as every word in our bible is "God breathed" and is God's word.Yet they pick and choose what they want from the bible to try and prove there case.Yet they say it is corrupted at the same time,and they quote it when trying to prove something,how twofaced if this?Cant they say no matter what you show us we wont believe,they should be honest about this,any sane person can see the bible has not been changed,listen to the bart e v j white debate and you can see James white teach him a real lesson.If bart was to try and do to the quran what he is attacking the bible for,muslims would call for him to be killed,as he would totally expose the quran in the publics eyes.All the muslims know the bible states Jesus is God,why dont they start to say we just dont believe it no matter what it says,instead of playing these silly games.They make themselves look really silly in the eyes of others,they wont believe even if Jesus came today and said im God,they still wouldnt believe.
Jesus never claimed to be God Almighty?
"Behold He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
I know this might get in the way of a perfectly bad argument, but all you have to do if you are a Muslim is ignore the above passage or come up with some specious way of re-interpreting or otherwise rejecting it out of hand.
***NAME CALLING MORATORIUM***
Attention all name callers: cut it out! It is childish behavior that is ineffective and offensive. Of course, you intend to be offensive, but is that really accomplishing anything constructive? Are you trying to win an argument at all costs and prove yourself right, or are you trying to faithfully witness to the grace of Christ?
I know this will not dissuade anyone at all from caustic behavior, but how about those who name the name of Jesus start speaking up when the fellow believers cross the line here. I'm ashamed at some of the ungodly aggression towards Muslims than I am observing on this blog. Quit with the lame excuse, "I'm going to give you some of your own medicine..." garbage. How about trying to turn the other cheek. Doesn't that sound a little bit like... let's see... Jesus? Yes, I believe it does!
How about it people, do you think you might want to start practicing living out the Gospel in public? If you can't do it here I doubt seriously you would have been very successful in the Roman Coliseum.
Just one opinion from an inconsistent shallow Christian brother.
PS. Hello Nazam. I hope you are doing well and that your studies are progressing along smoothly. Things are good here.
David,
Could you PLEASE remove my first comment in this thread. I have spent the last 40 minutes trying to get the trash-can feature to work so I can remove it, but it's not operative for me. Thanks.
I guess I was not prepared for partaking in discussions with insults and all kinds of unfortunate behavior, while still remaining above that type of behavior.
I fear I may have participated in making the Gospel appear a distasteful thing :-(
David and Nabeel, God bless as you continue in your important work.
It's been nice talking with everyone around here. I will now remove myself from the priviledge of commenting. May God have mercy on me. Bye.
lol lol guys, take it easy, im not offended by the hair comments!!!!!!!!!!!! one of my close friends is always telling me to cut it. this debate was back in november, my hair was in medium phase back then, i got even more hair now, i just want it to grow and grow, i dont plan to have it cut until start of summer time, ill shave it all off.
as for hair products, no, i dont use any, its all natural, i just put water, and comb comb comb, although i do sometimes think maybe i should put some gel, but some say gel can cause hair loss after a while, so just use the water and the comb.
there you go, hope you have enjoyed that, now i want to talk about David's muscles, i have started going to the gym for the past month, Nabeel and David what advice would you give for gym goers? Nabeel you have the good tall cut physique, David you got the more bulky muscular look. lol.
El-Cid: Please don't stop posting here. That's exactly what the enemy wants. We all have our moments, that is why we have the precious blood of Jesus that cleanses us and restores us to fellowship.
We need your portion here. It is inevitable that as we share the gospel with passion, we can get caught up in the heat of the moment, but at least you have a repentant heart.
May we all turn back to the Lord in humility as quickly as you have done. None of us is perfect, save the perfect lamb of God Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
God bless you.
Seeing that Sami has linked to my comments here in his recent blasphemy against the Holy Spirit I thought I comment so as to further illustrate what Islam does to people's minds. He quotes portions of a dialogue that supposedly took place between Shamoun and I assume some Muslim where Sami claims that Shamoun denied ever using the name Ben Malik. I invite people to go and read the words that are supposed to be from Shamoun to see that even in what Shamoun posted he never denied that he has ever used this name, ever. He denies that he used this name in the context of a discussion with some unnamed individual or in that particular forum. Sami just wanted to find another excuse to blaspheme the Holy Spirit and in so doing give further prove that the same wicked Spirit that molested Muhammad is now molesting his mind.
So Sami, nice try but all you managed to do was provide further evidence why you are a dishonest blasphemer, just as Keith Truth and others have proven. It seems that you have taken Mo's sunna to the extreme since you are now doing your best to imitate his illiteracy by your misreading of people's words and the context in which they are made.
Hey man if you take pride in being just as illiterate as Muhammad then more power to you. hehehe
I actully thought Dr.James White Had A Better Hair Style Then Sami.
Though Since We Are On The Topic Of How The Debators Look Like I Would Put Nabeel As The Brad Pitt Of The Debate World Sami As The Colin Farell David Wood As Mickey Rourke.
Well it's greatt to see how things are going... spetially when Jesus himself called Herod a "fox" (Lk. 13,32)... obviously we have to go abobe words and undestand what He means: Herod was a stealer, a dubious, an hipocrite person...
But I saw, and re-saw, all the posts, about Sami hair, and no one was, by anie means, rudde... so: El-Cid and BlackBaron: don't desapear... no one was makking foony to Sami (eben when he's foonie...) but, in a spetial way, saying: "what a great hair..."... and I would, defenitely, habe saide the same thing I said to Sammi, if it was doctor White who had such a tropical forest of hair in his head...
but yes: we all should be more carefull withe these thingues... nott because they can bringue bad reputattion to Christianity but juste because they're intrisiquely against Jesus' message... and when
I have to say that personally I think Sami's hair is pretty cool, unusually extraordinary but cool.
But now I can't wait for the summer; imagine Sami bald-headed.
Semper wrote: “Jesus never claimed to be God Almighty?
"Behold He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
I know this might get in the way of a perfectly bad argument, but all you have to do if you are a Muslim is ignore the above passage or come up with some specious way of re-interpreting or otherwise rejecting it out of hand.”
Hows about this one:
Acts 1: 9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? THIS JESUS, who has been taken up from you into heaven, WILL COME IN JUST THE SAME WAY AS YOU HAVE WATCHED HIM GO INTO HEAVEN." 12Then they returned to Jerusalem FROM THE MOUNT CALLED OLIVES, WHICH IS NEAR JERUSALEM, a Sabbath day's journey away.
So here we see that it is said that Yeshua will come in the exact same way as he has gone into heaven. We also see that he went up FROM THE MOUNT OF OLIVES! Now here is the prophecy of YHWH coming to His people.
Zecharyah 14:3Then YHWH will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4 In that day HIS FEET WILL STAND ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES, WHICH IS IN FRONT OF JERUSALEM ON THE EAST; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south… 9And YHWH will be king over all the earth; in that day YHWH will be ONE, and His name ONE.
Folkes: I'm bery glad to see thate this subject of Sammi Zawatari's hair finished bery well...
with Osama Abedulah perhaps we were already discusting if pre-pubescent girls (like baby Aiesha when married Muhammad and hadd sex withe him for the firste time) also have hair in their vagina...
Some mighte miss those thingues, but I really don'te, eben when I really habe a nostalgia for him and his obcession with ben malik's true/false identitie...
Yes, Nakdimon. True. True. The Zechariah passage is certainly a good cross-reference establishing Christ's deity - a comparison the apostle's would have been able to make when Christ uttered the words found in Acts 1. (This is a point Muslims often miss; the context in which Christ spoke was that of first century Israel, where the people were steeped in the law and the prophets. In other words, Jesus didn't have to parrot the exact words Muslims lay down for Him; rather, He could speak in such a way that those who searched the Scriptures would be able to recognize who He was claiming to be.)
Yet, I was thinking of the contention that Jesus never directly declared Himself to be God Almighty. Certainly Acts 1 is direct. The only reply that can be made to this is to say that these words were not actually spoken by Jesus, but there is no textual basis for such a denial; all the manuscripts agree. They might also try and re-interpret the passage, but since I don't have the same active imagination as some Muslims, I just have to wait with baited breath to see if any of them will apply their eisegetical hands to it. Just in case they do give it a shot, it should be like watching "exegetical cats on hot textual bricks".
edit: I meant to say, certainly Revelation 1 is direct.
Sami Zaatari has just posted an article at Muslim Responses that attempts to prove that the Holy Spirit whom Christians worship and adore is actually Satan, and not the Holy Spirit of the Bible or the Qur'an.
I wrote a quick little response to this here:
http://smprparatus.blogspot.com/2009/03/muslim-logic-is-sami-zaatari-indwelt-by.html
Apologies for the delayed response.
Nabeel I am sorry if my comment was deemed as Blasphemous, the comment was not written intended to offend the average Christian, but rather as a response to an old adversary. My apologies also extended to every other christian offended by this post, also note my behaviour is something I am accountable alone, so please take this out on me and not on any other muslims.
It's good to see that of late people have been willing to humble themselves enough to admit their wrong-doings. No wonder it's called apologetics :) Ok bad joke. Yahya, good to see you again. I wrote you an email a few weeks ago, but you never replied. You had invited me to dialogue via email. I hope that we can do so.
Hi Semper,
I have read ur article. That was well written. I loved the last part though. That sounded a lot like Osama arguing about the rock in the Ka'aba and Peter. LOL!
Hi David,
Good to hear from you again.
I am current doing a modual on Paul and Jesus. Unfortunetly I am quite behind my course work as I've got two essays due in a couple of weeks.
One is, "Discuss the view that Jesus is best understood as a prophet" and the other one is, which I haven't yet started, "Is there a central theame to the Kingdom of God sayings".
I haven't yet decided what to do my next modual on but I'm thinking on "the epistle to the Romans" but I would also like to do some Old Testament theology.
The problem is that at the Uni that I am studying, they lack Old Testament scholars so there isn't much for Old Testament studies.
Nakdimon,
:)
It looks like Sami and Osama fell from the same tree, employing as they do the same kind of "logic" and methodology.
Semper Paratus said : "It looks like Sami and Osama fell from the same tree, employing as they do the same kind of "logic" and methodology."
...or lack thereof !
:)
Here's an example the kinds of conversations we have with Muslim apologists:
"Why are you a muslim?"
"Because the Quran is the word of God"
"Why should I believe it's the word of God?"
"Because it is perfectly preserved"
"So is Lord of the Rings, should I believe that too?"
"No, the Lord of the Rings doesn't claim to be the word of God"
"So I should believe any book that is preserved and claims to be the word of God?"
"Come on, there are so many miracles in the Qur'an, things that noone knew about"
"And what about pythagoras (570BCE) who determined the size of the earth and its shape, should we believe that he was a prophet?"
"I don't know, but look, the Quran describes the stages of embryological development"
"Actually, the Quran gets it wrong, it puts bones before flesh when it's actually the other way around, and the bible already talks about this in the book of Job"
"I don't believe the bible"
"Why?"
"It's corrupted."
"Where?"
"1 john 5:7, Mark ch 16 long ending, John 7:53-8:11."
"Those weren't in the original manuscripts, we already know"
"See it's corrupted !"
"No, modern bibles mention this in their footnotes"
"Jesus wasn't the Son of God"
"Why not?"
"Because Allah cannot have a Son Surah 6:101"
"But Allah can have a Son - 39:4"
"We cannot worship three gods - 5:119"
"We don't believe in three Gods, we only believe in one God"
"No you dont, you worship the trinity, that's three Gods"
"No, we believe one God - Mark 12:29,revealed in three coeternal, coequal persons, namely the Father (John 5:18), Son(John 5:23) (Rev 22:13-16), and Spirit and Mary is not one of them"
"Jesus can't be God or the Son of God because God cannot die"
"I agree God cannot die, but God took on human flesh"
"This is blasphemy!"
"Why?"
"Because now you are saying that God can go to the toilet and get tired and get hungry"
"Jesus voluntarily emptied Himself of His Divine perogatives and was willing to be restricted by the flesh"
"Haha, if Jesus died, and Jesus is God, who was running the Universe?"
"God the Father"
"What?"
"God the Father"
"But if Jesus is God then He is the Father and Son and..."
"No, Christ is the Son of God"
"You Christians say we believe 1 God, but then you contradict yourself because if Jesus is God and the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God, that's 3 Gods"
"No, 1 God"
"How can 3 Gods be one God????"
"No, I never said three Gods can be one God"
"Yes you said..."
"3 persons, share the one divine Being of God"
"1+1+1 = 3 not 1!"
"I agree"
"No you say 1+1+1 = 1"
"No, it'd be more accurate to say 1*1*1 = 1"
"Why do I need Jesus to die on the cross for me anyway? Your God is so weak He can't just forgive."
"Well He could just forgive, but that would undermine His attribute of Justice."
"You Christians just think that Jesus died for all of your sins and then you can do whatever you want"
"No we don't believe we can do whatever we want. We're commanded by scripture to live a Holy manner of life"
"But if you sin, you'll still go to paradise!"
"But you just said that Allah forgives without any form of propitiation, so by your logic, muslims sin and go to paradise as well."
"Well, we don't need a Savior. Why should I have to pay for Adam's sin? I didn't eat the apple"
"Well the bible never says Adam ate the apple. So you think that no man can ever be responsible for another man's sins?"
"Right, Allah is so just and merciful he makes the evil men pay for their own sins. Christianity is so stupid, it let's evil people get off without having to pay for anything. Imagine what would happen if the courts did that."
"Actually the bible teaches us to first make amends with those we have sinned against before we come before God. So if you think that no man can pay for another man's sins, why will Christians and Jews have to pay for Muslims sins?"
"What?"
"Why should I pay for a muslim's sins. If you rape someone, why should I have to pay for your crime?"
"haha the bible teaches rape"
"No it doesn't, please answer the question, why should I have to pay for your sins if every man is responsible for their own sins?"
"That's a lie! We don't beleive that!"
"Sahih Muslim says in Book 037, Number 6668 Abu Burda reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to 'Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him)? I said: Yes."
"I have to go"
"Ok bye"
Sami Zaatari isnt a good debater, because he has to mis- represent his opponent's postion all the time. I was once listening to him debate sam shamoun and shamoun had to repeat himself over and over because sami was trying to mis represent what sam said and Christianity. To be honest Zaatari isnt qualified to debate and shouldnt be taken seriously.
Sam came to rescue of james but he failed to answer the points raised by Sami
Xia,
I assume you are refering to Sam's brief analysis of the Zaatari vs. White debate when you say: "Sam came to rescue of james but he failed to answer the points raised by Sami."
Actually, as Sam himself pointed out in his article, Dr. White didn't need rescuing: "Dr. White soundly refuted Zaatari’s irrational arguments and distortion of Biblical truth."
In addition, Sam wasn't trying to address every point raised by Sami in the debate, he was only looking at "a few particular egregious errors that Zaatari made".
Indeed, there was no need for Sam to address everything that Zaatari said, because "Zaatari’s deliberate manhandling of the Bible’s teachings have been exposed and documented countless number of times on our website and by others..."
...lol, Royal Son. That so made my night. :)
royal son you are an idiot every single argument you made goes back at the bible.
ur not an atheist for Gods sake.
you try to talk against Islam you actually defame your religion since Christianity makes the same claim.
george: another idiot what shabbir ally wears isnt for all.
Infact india is the inventor of pajamas and thus pants and its permissible to wear that.
wow why dont you wear turbans like your jesus then??
Javed,
I was almost persuaded by your remarks to become a Muslim. If you had only called one more person an idiot it probably would have made the difference for me.
Hey Guys,
Here is a link from a person who provides documentation that Sami Zaatari has threatened to have him and his family killed, even beheaded:
http://www.youtube.com/user/SamiZaatariExposed
You can see the emails that Sami left threatening this guy using some of the foulest language. Time to have this kid exposed for being what he truly is.
Javed said:
"royal son you are an idiot every single argument you made goes back at the bible.
ur not an atheist for Gods sake.
you try to talk against Islam you actually defame your religion since Christianity makes the same claim."
Sir - In case you noticed, the conversation I posted was a hypothetical one, and it is a response to what Muslims claim Christianity teaches. Naturally I would refer to the bible since it is the bible that is being questioned and taken out of context by the muslim. It's like if I were to speak about verses in the Qur'an, I would naturally expect a Muslim a respond with verses from the Qur'an.
The point was not an attempt to prove everything is true just because the bible says so, it was simply to respond to mischaracteriztions of the bible itself.
Note also that I did refer to a verse from the Qur'an in the conversation when talking about whether Allah can or cannot have a son.
I would suggest in the future, that you interact with the points that are mentioned rather than resorting to name-calling. I am sure you are more than intelligent enough to handle such discussions.
God bless you.
Shaved said: «wow why dont you wear turbans like your jesus then?»
Shaved: how do you know thate? are you talkin about the historical Jesus or the ionvented jesus of the currupted qur'ane?
This was clearly won by Dr.White because he did make a case,made the proper question that must be answered like "can a simple prophet say all what Jesus said?" Sami said "then your logic is that if a prophet can't do that he is god" well he is something else, so let's say we put that as a lil win for our cause because it proves Jesus is not a simple prophet(so at thos momment Islam doctrine is destroyed),but when we keep making this "lil" wins 1 after another well we can't help thinking that White/Apostles/Jews(hhuh Pharapheses) are right and u have no case.
Yet the very effort to disprove the divinity of Jesus using the Gospels is nonsense for me,even more when Jesus says he is his bogotten son,because even if Sami proves that in some parts he clearly says he is not god(which he didn't) in others jesus leaves very clear he is god, like when Thomas tells him my Lord My God which actually is more powerful because it's the climax of Jesus personal teachings to them., i think the best way a muslim can go throught this is using the argument we hear all time "It's corrupted" i have seen interviews to Zakir Naik and the fastest word that comes to my mind is "populist" because like Sami they use the gospel in the very parts they need leaving out the context but even so they have to misinterpretate them in order to make some case (even if doing this puts in trouble their own religion like Naik using John 14:24 to "prove" Jesus isn't god "ignoring" that the verse they use to claim that muhamamad is predicted in the gospel is being put in real danger when u read 2 verses below 14:26.Then when Sami started to say that the strong argument was that Mary had to know he was God, It was obviously a last minute thing it came to his mind XD.. because how do you expect Mary to fully understand what even the apostles couldn't until the last momment and i think they fully understood it when the spirit came to them and not before.Also i don't think in that time everyone had a holy torah in his house,yet even if they knew about it, they couldn't fully understand what was this Messiah about, they knew he was supposed to be their king, and the others predictions maybe they didn't took them as predictions at that time, i mean they showed their lack of knowledge of the scriptures in many ways, it's easy for us to judge them now because we have the full book and biblical studies, biblical schools etc so it's easy to join the dots, but i think it wasn't so easy for them (that's my opinion and i'm not an scholar so Sami if u read this do not quote me as that "trinitarian" u said or well u actually dind't say his name) I think that Jesus was very right when he said John 3:12"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" Which also makes a huge difference between him knowing heavenly things by his own and Muhammad when he is asked about the spirit Sura 17:85.
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