Wednesday, February 18, 2009

The Ibn Masud Problem: Muslims' Flawed Responses

If you've been reading this blog for the past few months, you must be very familiar with Ibn Masud and the arguments that issue forth from him against the modern Quran (i.e. the Zaid Standard Version, or ZSV). If you are new to this blog, welcome! Allow me to recap some of the information for you.

Ibn Masud and the Corruption of the ZSV
Ibn Masud is Muhammad's first choice of Quran teachers for his people:
Narrated Masruq: Abdullah bin Mas'ud was mentioned before Abdullah bin Amr who said, "That is a man I still love, as I heard the Prophet (saw) saying, 'Learn the recitation of the Qur'an from four: from Abdullah bin Mas'ud - he started with him - Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa, Mu'adh bin Jabal and Ubai bin Ka'b". (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 5, p.96).

Notice Muhammad starts by naming Ibn Masud, and the narrator emphasizes this fact. Indeed, the narrator goes on to say that he loves Ibn Masud. We can safely infer that this hadith intends to convey Ibn Masud as the best teacher of the Quran.

Being a proud expert of the Quran, Ibn Masud would agree that his mastery of the Quran was unrivaled. Of his own prowess, he says:
''Narrated Abdullah (bin Mas'ud) (ra): By Allah other than Whom none has the right to be worshipped! There is no Sura revealed in Allah's Book but I know at what place it was revealed; and there is no verse revealed in Allah's Book but I know about whom it was revealed. And if I know that there is somebody who knows Allah's Book better than I, and he is at a place that camels can reach, I would go to him. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.488). ''

However, Ibn Masud does not think highly of today's Quran, the one collected by Zaid. In comparing himself to Zaid, he says:
''The people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur'an. I like it better to read according to the recitation of him (Prophet) whom I love more than that of Zayd Ibn Thabit. By Him besides Whom there is no god! I learnt more than seventy surahs from the lips of the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, while Zayd Ibn Thabit was a youth, having two locks and playing with the youth". (Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Vol. 2, p.444)

As we can see, the differences between Ibn Masud's Quran and Zaid's Quran were not minor. Before even examining them, we can know that they were big enough for Ibn Masud to call the reading of Zaid's Quran "deceit". But when we examine the evidence, we find out why. 

According to Ibn Abi Daud's Kitab al-Masahif, we find out that Ibn Masud only includes 111 surahs in his Quran (as opposed to the ZSV's 114). In addition, chapters that were found in both codices often had many variants; within surat al-Baqara alone, 101 variants exist. Not all of these variants are differences in spelling. For example:
Surah 2:275 begins with the words Allathiina yaakuluunar-ribaa laa yaquumuuna - "those who devour usury will not stand". Ibn Mas'ud's text had the same introduction but after the last word there was added the expression yawmal qiyaamati, that is, they would not be able to stand on the "Day of Resurrection".

Naturally, since Muhammad told people to go to Ibn Masud if they wanted to learn the Quran, many Muslims studied under Ibn Masud. Ibn Masud's version of the Quran was thus perpetuated to his students. The aforementioned variant, for example, was included in the codex of Talha ibn Musarrif, one of Ibn Masud's students in Kufa.

The Muslim Responses
So far, there have been three Muslim responses on this blog to the above case.

1 - "Ibn Masud's codex was his own personal notebook; it is not to be taken as a variant codex of the Quran!"

The desperate nature of this response is so obvious I am amazed anyone would even utter it. But alas, this is the most common response I have seen so far.

The main problem with this is that it is demonstrably false! We know historically that Ibn Masud taught his version of the Quran to his students (as mentioned above). Therefore, we cannot possibly say that he just considered it his own personal notebook.

Another problem with this response is that it goes against the supporting evidence; we know that Ibn Masud did not want to give up his codex when it came time to burn the variants. Why would Uthman want a notebook to be burnt when everything else he was burning were manuscripts? Clearly, if Quranic manuscripts were what was being burnt, and Uthman wanted Ibn Masud's book burnt, it was probably not just a notebook!

But let's give the Muslim response the benefit of the doubt. We may just happen to find something like this in an archaeological dig:

Uthman's List of Things to Burn 
1 - All Quranic manuscripts
2 - Ibn Masud's notebook, which is definitely not a manuscript...

Even after finding such a chit, the Muslim response still has a huge problem: why on earth would Ibn Masud be so hesitant to give up his "notebook", even resisting the command of the khalifa? I doubt he would do so without good reason.

And this brings me to my final point: the supporting evidence from Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir makes the pieces fit. Ibn Masud must have considered Zaid's Quran such a deceit that he was willing to resist the command of the khalifa. Not only does this supporting evidence pass the historial method's criterion of embarrassing admission, it also makes all the pieces fit (i.e. the criterion of illumination). The Muslim response, on the other hand, makes no sense, ignores the criteria of historical investigation, and indeed just throws out historical evidence on a whim.

2 - "Ibn Masud was just one of many teachers of the Quran!"

This is true, but it's a distortion. At the very least, he was one of the top four teachers of the Quran. But if we are to trust Masruq (which we should, since he must be trustworthy if he is capable of transmitting a hadith graded sahih) then we would conclude that Ibn Masud is the best teacher of the Quran.

But again, for argument's sake, let's pretend he's just as good as the other 3 that Muhammad mentioned. We know that at least one of those other 3 teachers also had many variants in his Quran (Ubay ibn Kab)! So at least half of Muhammad's top 4 teachers of the Quran disagree with Zaid! And it's quite possible that the other 2 did as well, we just can't verify their codices since the variants were all burnt by Uthman.

Best case scenario? Even if the implications of the hadith are wrong and Ibn Masud is just one of the four best teachers of the Quran, we can be certain that half of Muhammad's top teachers of the Quran disagree with the ZSV. These disagreements include different whole chapters as well as different verses and different words.

3 - "The 'variants' in Ibn Masud's codex were no variants at all! They were part of the 7 ahruf, or perhaps just differences in qirrat!"

This, too, is a horridly desperate effort to save the Quran from having variants. No reasonable definition of ahruf or qirrat, no matter how broad, can encompass whole missing chapters! Ibn Masud had 111 chapters in his Quran, leaving out chapters 1, 113, and 114. He considered these to be prayers revealed by God for the benefit of Muslims, but not surahs intended for the Quran. (As a side note, Ubay ibn Kab included these 3 surahs in his codex, along with 2 others. The additional 2 surahs are prayers recited by Muslims even today which many believe to be divinely revealed, but not part of the Quran).

If Muslims continue providing this as a response to the Ibn Masud problem, I would simply have to ask "What is the definition of ahruf or qirrat?" Even while ignoring the abysmal failure of anyone in history to ever provide a good definition of ahruf, (a fact that even Muslim theologians have noted) there simply can be no reasonable definition which can include missing chapters.

As it stands, all Muslim responses to the Ibn Masud problem fail, and fail miserably. There is no solid Muslim response. If you think you have one, my Muslim friends, I'd love to hear it.

75 comments:

Nakdimon said...

I had this brilliant idea about the Islam, Qur’an and Muhammad. Since Muslims have no regard for facts, lets stick their disregard for facts to them.

Lets just all say that Muhammad was a true prophet who preached Christianity, that Yeshua was God that there was a trinity and that it got distorted by Uthman. Uthman changed the true Qur’anic revelation (that was actually Christianity) forced everyone to give up his version and had them all burned, together with the original Qur’an. What we have today is a distorted form of Christian teachings in Islam, that have all been edited out by Uthman and Zaid. Let’s just say that Muhammad was a descendant of Paul who died before he could fully educate Muhammad about the Tenach and the NT and that Uthman took advantage of it and then went to the Talmud, the Targum and the apocryphal Gospels instead of the Tenach and the New Testament, and that is the reason why the stories of the biblical characters in the Qur’an are so botched up. Even though Paul and Muhammad are generations removed in reality, that doesn’t matter since the Muslims have no problems at all with anachronistic timelines anyway.

And of course we can expand on all these things, so if you have any suggestions, please feel free to add your two cents. Notice though that this is all made up, but we have more grounds for this reasoning based on the evidence from Islamic sources than the Muslims have for their wild claims against the Bible.

So I say lets repay the Muslims with equal values! Just for kicks!

Anonymous said...

Obviously a bad source. I mean, there are tons of reasons why muslims would make up disagreements on the quranic text.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Were these variant qur'ans not based upon individual recitations.

In that case the qur'an of Abdullah Masud was not variant due the writing of a note book.

It remains that these variants were actually variants in recitation prior to the variants Qur'ans being recorded.

And as we have provided proof for already, these variants were not merely dialects, missing or added verses and chapters, variants in grammar, wording are by no means tantamount to dialectic variants.

The very fact that Uthman ordered his revised standard version written in the Quarish dialects since he presumed that the Qur'an was revealed in that language (in particular) indicates that dialects certainly had effected the Qur'an, but it also reveals that he was not aware of seven readers, but merely variants Qur'an.

Otherwise if the dialects were considered to be divinely intended, the early Muslims would see the logic and accept Allah's decision thereof, but they chose to burn these variant readings which suggests that the dialects were not considered the primary problem, the problem were the actual variants, which they considered variants of human origin.

Now if Uthman burned the variant Qur'ans due to the dialectical variants, it means that the whole idea about seven readers is bogos, an early corruption to escape the problem; I am sure Uthman in his right mind would not burn what he knew Allah had intended.

Uthman does not seem to consider the seven readings when he burns the qur'ans, they seem non-existent, he simply declares that the Qur'an was revealed in the Quarish dialect.

Ever wonder why Uthman did not say: 'the qur'an was revealed in such and such dialect' so rewrite and amend every variant Qur'an in its own dialect, as it was revealed in those dialects.

The possibility remains however, that the Arabs themselves reworked the revalation into their own dialects, but then we need to conclude that the actual verbatim revelation of God was corrupted.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Since Abdullah Masud was the primary authority on the Qur'an, I would opt for his view rather than that of Uthman, who with Ali conspired the revised Qur'anic version simply to unite the people.

Hence the present Qur'an smells of politic rather than preservation, and we need to chose whether we will chose the mind of a politician rather than that off a cherished successor (Masud).

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Nakdimon wrote:

Tenach and the NT and that Uthman took advantage of it and then went to the Talmud, the Targum and the apocryphal Gospels instead of the Tenach and the New Testament, and that is the reason why the stories of the biblical characters in the Qur’an are so botched up.

Elijah wrote:

Interesting, this could suggest that Uthman and his allies decided to exonerate the Arabic world from the Roman world (since they were enemies) by including only the Semetic sources and gnostic literature which the Roman world despised. This could certainly smell of corruption.

I nevertheless doubt it (at the moment), but this is certainly an interesting theory (very interesting indeed, now I think about it), worth assessing, I wonder what we would come up with; I doubt anyone has really probed into it.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

I do know Nakdimon that you were only making a crazy analogy to establish a logical pointer to our muslim friends about their illogical methodology.

However, I do believe that within that analogy there are some aspects worth considering.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Nakdimon

were you able to look more into the possibility of an 'answering-muslim pal-talk room'

I would love to join you guys on the paltalk more often, but currently and for the next three or four weeks I am pretty much drained due to studies.

Fernando said...

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said: «for the next three or four weeks I am pretty much drained due to studies»...

Good lucke withe them... I'll bee praying for your sucsses and the Glory our God may have from that...

Nakdimon said...

oh Hogan,

I could easily make such a room. But I dont think that David or Nabeel approved.

After I created that room, I would could make some of you guys admins of that room too.

So... Nabeel and David. What do you say? Should there be such a room on PT?

Oh btw... the weekend of March 1 I will be debating Sami on PT.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

I guess both David and Nabeel are busy at the moment.

But I am happy to get involved, both as an admin and as a debater, however, I am not sure whether I can give more than four hours a week at the moment.

Keep us informed about the debate with Sami. We will be praying.

What is the topic?

Oh yeah, do you have a room on paltalk already?

Nakdimon said...

Hi Hogan,

We will just enjoy the few sparse moments you will be sharing with us then.

The topic will be either “Is Yeshua/Isa God or a prophet of Islam?” or “Is Muhammad a true prophet?” or both back to back. But it will be going down next week. I thank you all for your prayers.

I already have a room on Paltalk, but I can change the name of that room and then go from there.

Bless,
Nakdimon

Osama Abdallah said...

Nabeel,

It was a committee of TOP QURANIC SCHOLARS that Caliph Uthman ordered to go through the painstaking task of compiling all of the writings that existed and determine WHICH ARE FALSE AND WHICH ARE TRUE.


Uthman himself didn't determine anything except to burn what the scholars determined after thorough investigation to be false text. That is why we're not spinning around ourselves in speculations and conjectures and doubts as your people, the bible followers, are.

The reader can visit: www.answering-christianity.com/quran/textual.htm for a lot more details.

Have a good day,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

Also Nabeel, Uthman did not start the compilation of the Holy Quran. ABU BAKER, the 1st Islamic Caliph, did, and Uthman, the 3rd Islamic Caliph, ultimately finished it.

So it was a carefully worked on process. And it was the Top Quranic Scholars that determined what we have today from THE HOLY QURAN, not Uthman or any mere layman.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Nakdimon--

Feel free to make that room on paltalk. From what I understand, it sounds like you'll be using the Acts17 or AnsweringMuslims name. That is fine - just try to keep the spirit of the room the same as the spirit of this ministry (i.e. focus on historical evidences and truth, not plain old Islam bashing). I'm sure that wont be a problem at all - you guys are great.

Looking forward to seeing what comes out of it!
-Nabeel

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Nakdimon:
Lets just all say that Muhammad was a true prophet who preached Christianity, that Yeshua was God that there was a trinity and that it got distorted by Uthman.


Actually, that's an argument that David and I use quite a bit to stump our Muslim friends who provide random conspiracy theories against Christianity, such as one friend of ours, who said the disciples must have allied with the Jews against Paul (?!?).

Anyhow, we've kind of stepped it up a few notches. We've concluded that Aisha was attempting to save the true teachings of Muhammad (i.e. Christianity) when Ali came against her in battle. Why else would these two great Muslims go to war with each other?

So we can conclude that it was, in fact, Ali who released a goat into Aisha's house after Muhammad's death, and that goat ate all of the MSS that Aisha had been hiding which would prove that Muhammad preached Christianity.

When Abu Bakr started preaching "modern Islam", a bunch of Christian-Muslims left in anger. That is why there were apostate wars - Abu Bakr systematically killed all the Christian-Muslims until everyone else was too afraid to say anything.

*NOTE FOR MUSLIMS*: I understand that this is all ridiculous beyond belief, and totally contrary to history. I don't believe any of the above "conspiracy theories". The point of all this is that as ridiculous as these theories are, they are way more sound and have way more support than the abysmal conspiracy theories that Muslims come up with against Christianity! Pauline conspiracies, disciple conspiracies, even Allah conspiracies! Perhaps, after reading the above note, you'll see how frustrating it can be for Christians when Muslims keep hinging their positions on absurd conspiracies.

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Osama Abdallah:
It was a committee of TOP QURANIC SCHOLARS that Caliph Uthman ordered to go through the painstaking task of compiling all of the writings that existed and determine WHICH ARE FALSE AND WHICH ARE TRUE.


Your response makes not an ounce of impact on my point. My point is that Muhammad's top teacher of the Quran called the final product a "deceit". Another one of Muhammad's top teachers disagreed with it on many points, too.

Pointing out that the ZSV is the product of a committee of lesser scholars instead of one lesser scholar does nothing to vindicate the Quran from the Ibn Masud problem.

-Nabeel

Nakdimon said...

thank you, Nabeel, for the thumbs up. Of Course I will try to keep it in the spirit of truth and not just bashing islam. Feel free to tap me on the back of the head when you see deviations in the spirit of the blog.

thanks again.

Osama Abdallah said...

Nabeel,

There is no proof that the quote on Ibn Masud is actually true or authentic. Much lies had been invented on the mouths of many, including the Prophet himself.


That is why I trust the product of the Top Quranic Scholars, who were in the 10s (tens), that Uthman had them work on the compilation of the Holy Quran, than believing a mere narration on the mouth of someone.

Have a good day,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

David Wood said...

Osama,

Please provide us with some authentic traditions showing that a team of scholars more knowledgeable than Ibn Masud and Ubayy ibn Ka'b was working on the manuscript of the Qur'an.

As things stand now, Nabeel is quoting Islam's strongest sources. You're simply stating your opinion, and pretending that this outweighs careful historical investigation (all too common in the world of Islamic apologetics).

Anonymous said...

I wrote:
Obviously a bad source. I mean, there are tons of reasons why muslims would make up disagreements on the quranic text.

Later, Osama wrote:
Nabeel,

There is no proof that the quote on Ibn Masud is actually true or authentic. Much lies had been invented on the mouths of many, including the Prophet himself.


I have to much practice in this.

David Wood said...

Concerning the PalTalk chatroom, I think we should begin by discussing various issues, as has been suggested; then, over time, we can slowly evolve into an apologetics training room. We can have reading assignments, discussions on the readings, practice debates, etc. What does everyone think?

Osama Abdallah said...

Matthew,

Did not the Bible-committe during Constantine's time go through the texts and discard what they believed was false and fabricated?

So why are you finding it strange that we have similar scenarios?

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

David Wood,

I think paltalk is a great place to meet. Not only can we double check each others' references and sources to make sure that no lies are pushed forward whether intentionally or unintentionally, but we can also debate without the time restrictions, which would allow us to really focus on a point to get to the bottom of it.

I personally would love to come in to your room or invite you to mine to have a friendly debate with you. In my room, I respect my guests a lot and address them as Mr. and Mrs. Others like Sam Shamoun are very disrespectful and we have exposed his foul mouth on my site at: www.answering-christianity.com/dumpster_section.htm

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

Matthew and David,

Please visit this link to see this STUNNING numerical Miracle in the Holy Quran:


http://www.answering-christianity.com/odd_even_miracle.xls

This will help further to see that the Holy Quran that we have in our hands today is indeed PERFECT and PERFECTLY PRESERVED.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

Fernando,

Did not Constantine summon the top bible-scholars in the city of Nicea (nisea or nisia) in modern-day Turkey?


????????????????????????????

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Fernando said...

Usama:

1) «Did not the Bible-committe during Constantine's time go through the texts and discard what they believed was false and fabricated?»

and

2) «Did not Constantine summon the top bible-scholars in the city of Nicea (nisea or nisia) in modern-day Turkey?»

are note the same... and you know thatt...

but even 2) is in some aspectes incorrect... lets habe another try Usama?

And sorrie, you all, for the previous enourmous laugh... I could nott resiste...

DAN12345 said...

Yes in modern day Izmir in turkey.Many conspiracy theories have been thrown about about this day,many muslims try to say this day the trinity was formed.Let us get your version of events of what happened on this day then i will correct you...

Osama Abdallah said...

Dear Dan,

No need to correct me. Like I advised David and Matthew, please visit this link to see A STUNNING NUMERICAL MIRACLE in the Holy Quran:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/odd_even_miracle.xls

You and also visit the main section at:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links

The first link proves that the Holy Quran is PERFECT and had been PERFECTLY PRESERVED.

Have a good day,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

DAN12345 said...

Osama i want your events on this day in modern day izmir what happened,every muslim has a different story about what went on this day i want to hear what your version of events are and i will correct you to what happened the real story.You keep posting links to your site,your site has nothing but virus's please post on here as i havent got money to buy a new laptop at the moment once the trojan kick's in i will need to.

Fernando said...

DAN12345 saide to Usama: «your site has nothing but virus's»...

This's true ans is also another, judicialy accepted, information to you Usama... next timme you might be surprised about whome will knock att your door with a suppina to apeear in court...

DAN12345 said...

Osama also in Izmir is Ephesus,where the early christians were.Mary Mother of Jesus had a house their and lived before her death there,why didnt she travel to mecca?Why was she living with the infidel's?I thought she was a muslim....emmm surely the last place she would want to live in is a christian village....I went there 4 years ago muslims also visit her house to pray their,not one of them ever consider's why did she live here?why?

Bryant said...

David Said:

"Concerning the PalTalk chatroom, I think we should begin by discussing various issues, as has been suggested; then, over time, we can slowly evolve into an apologetics training room. We can have reading assignments, discussions on the readings, practice debates, etc. What does everyone think?"


I would be soooooo down for that!
Let the learning begin!!

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Osama-

What do you think happened at Constantine's council? Provide some historical evidence while you're at it.

Let's let everyone see how one of the greatest Muslim apologists arrives at his conclusions :-)

-Nabeel

DAN12345 said...

Nabeel you wrote:"Provide some historical evidence while you're at it."
He he he he his website full up of thousands and thousand articles NOT ONCE SHRED OF EVIDENCE,all they have is theories,they never can back up what they claim.Thats why i like your new idea,let us christians start to make theories up and start throwing them around see how the muslims like it.Everything we write or say,we back it up with evidence from history,evidence from the scriptures,theirs is pure hearsay...

Anonymous said...

Please visit this link to see this STUNNING numerical Miracle in the Holy Quran:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/odd_even_miracle.xls


And I voted Nadir Ahmed for worst defender of Islam.

Osama Abdallah said...

Matthew,

Why is the link very funny to you? Did you even visit it?

http://www.answering-christianity.com/odd_even_miracle.xls


At www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links we have tons of Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran. At least, when one investigates the scientific claims in the Bible, one sees AMPLE ERRORS AND CONFLICTS!

Visit: www.answering-christianity.com/contra.htm

So again, what is so funny in the link I gave you?

Nabeel,

I've covered the council of Nisea at: www.answering-christianity.com/ac24.htm#links

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

DAN12345 said...

Osama i visited your link(at a very big risk of getting a trojan might i add!)you had a man called adel(muslim of course) as the source he had written a book on the council of nicea,now WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE FOR THIS UTTER GARBAGE!you must live in a dream world osmam start dealing with HISTORY AND EVIDENCE you might start to be taken seriously instead being known as the clown of hearsays and baby like mad theories.DONT TALK THEORIES TALK FACTS FOR ONCE!

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Osama-

I'm not about to visit your site with all its viruses. Post a brief synopsis of your points here if you want me to see them.

-Nabeel

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Dan--

Try not to use the language that Osama uses. Though he might not be winning any arguments, he's winning your tongue away from the language of love and Christ towards the language of Satan. Yet that is the same tongue that you use to praise the Father. My brother, this should not be. (James 3)

DAN12345 said...

Nabeel anything that is going against the truth is utter garbage especially when it comes from osama,i live in london we dont use the word "garbage" it is not used in our everyday language im using the word he has used to describe our holy bible many times,so it is very good to let him taste his own medicine,but the point of it is that it is garbage!No evidence just hearsay is garbage is it not nabeel?if i said it isnt i would be a liar,and garbage is not a swear word it is a word used for "rubbish" and what comes from his website is rubbish,so i will tell the truth at all times,,,and i also said he is known as the clown of hearsays which is again true,so why did you write about my language?Im intrigued to know what i said that was wrong?

Anonymous said...

Nabeel, Osama's miracle is this:

When you add the chapters of the Quran (114), you get 6555 (in case you suck at math, it's (114/2)*(114+1).

Then you add up the number of verses and you get 6236.

Then you add the number of verses of a chapter with the chapter number (1+7, 2+286, etc.)

At the end, you add up all the even results from this and you get the sum of the verses. If you add up all the odd results from this, you get the sum of the capters.

I haven't checked his stats, but I'm not convinced:
- The chapters aren't in the same order in which they were revealed.
- This is pure idiocy.
- The Quran never mentions this. If God would want to use it as an argument, he could write it in his uncreated book.
- There could be some math trick behind this.
- "Stars are misiles to shoot at demons" needs more proof than that.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Similar ideas apply to the Bible as well, such as the miracle of number seven.

There is supposedly a book covering thousand of pages that assess the miracle of number seven in the Bible. The one who discovered the system was not a Christian but became a Christian I am told.

According to some matematic experts, Genesis chapter one and verse one could not have been written by humans, as the Hebrew numerology attached the Hebrew letters reveals the number seven deriving from every possible angle; this they say could not have been done without the best computers.

I am not sure how accurate all this is, but Christianity possess similar claims.

But then again we have other miracolous number systems in the Bible, such as number 9 and 12, among others.

However, even the book Moby Dick has revealed a number system that obviously predicts secret messages.

Dk said...

Perhaps Osama is no good at defending the canonisation and preservation of the Quran since he says ultimately he is a Muslim due to the Scientific Miracles....

personally I doubt it.

But lets give him a shot at his "best" topic: "science in the Quran" which is a MODERN POLEMIC not even put into use by ALLAH, haha.

Allah has his own best arguments for the Qurans authenticity (regardless of Osamas bottom reason for being muslim):

1) No one can produce a book like it

2) There are no contradictions

3) The Message has been preserved.

4) The Quran is consistant with and confirms the message of the Law, Pslams and Gospel and even fullfills the previous revelation.

Unfortunately since atleast 2-4 have been falsified, Osama is only left with what he thinks still has merit: "science".

(I don't believe 1 has been falsified since no one has produced a book quite like the Quran, not in all history has someone produced such a shambles of caveman writings, and such a savage work of stupidity.)

Osama said:

"Did not the Bible-committe during Constantine's time go through the texts and discard what they believed was false and fabricated?

So why are you finding it strange that we have similar scenarios?"

Although the information presented here is wrong, lets assume for the sake of argument that Osama is right.

The Quran and Bible have both been designed and edited by the human hand, proving Allahs reason for sending down the Quran (correcting the man made corruptions of the man made Bible) fail since Allah failed to change his methodology in how to preserve a text and kept it identical with that of the previous corrupt methods of Constantine and his ilk.

Now note an intelligent may respond by noting the differences in the codification and editing of such religious texts, BUT NOT Osama, I prophecy the following logical fallacies (if indeed Osama does respond):

1) Red herring
2) Non-sequitor
3) Ad-hominem

Hopefully i'll turn out to be a false prophet, but highly unlikely. :-)

Osama Abdallah said...

Nabeel,

There are no viruses on my site. McAfee has cleared my site from this false accusation.


Please visit the link at:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/odd_even_miracle.xls

You can also visit the main section at:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm

Have a good day,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

Ok Nabeel,

Here is the synopsis that you requested:

The sum of the Noble Chapters (Surahs) in the Holy Quran is 6555 (1+2+3+....+114= 6555).

The total number of Noble Verses in the Holy Quran is 6236.

When we added each Chapter's number with its Noble Verses' total, we found out that the SUM of the ODD results = 6555

And When we added each Chapter's number with its Noble Verses' total, we found out that the SUM of the EVEN results = 6236

The MS-Excel file that is located at: http://www.answering-christianity.com/odd_even_miracle.xls the listing of the Noble Chapters and the total of their Noble Verses, and it also has all of the formulas and calculations.

Now, I don't know what these numbers mean. But I do know that such amazing accuracy is ABNORMAL, and could not have been done by a human, especially 1,400 years ago.

I hope this helps.

Have a good day,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

Hogan,

I watched on the history channel the "Bible Codes", and statisticians think it is a total joke!
It goes as follows:

You take a block of paragraphs or a page worth of words and concatenate them together by removing all white space from between the words. Then you can extract words from these blocks or matricies.

This joke was destroyed by brining the MOBY DICK BOOK and doing the same thing with it. The same "prophecies" could be found at Moby Dick.

So no, the bible is a total joke when it comes to Numerical Miracles. Not only in the numerical ones, but also in the actual scientific statements. It has AN AWFUL AMOUNT OF SCIENTIFIC PROBLEMS in its statements.

Have a good day,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Osama--

I think numerical miracles are some of the goofiest arguments on the planet. But, again, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's say that you're right, and the modern Quran, on account of numerical miracles, must be from God. Then what if we find numerical miracles in the modern Bible? Must it not also be from God?

Here's something I found on a website, just for you. NOTE: I think this argument is horrible, but it's the same argument you're using.

NUMEROLOGY CODES IN THE BIBLE.

Numerology of the Bible deals with all the numbers in the Bible. These numbers can be classified into two main categories: (1) numbers in the surface text and (2) numbers hidden in the text.

To just give you a glimpse of the numbers in the surface text of the Bible, I am simply pointing out the wonder of the number 153.

As we all know, this number appears in chapter 21 of John, where Jesus' 7 disciples, with Peter in lead, were catching fish as they did not know what to do, even after they had seen the risen Lord. They worked hard all night, but caught nothing. Then they heard a man by the shore speaking to them: "Cast the net at the right side of the boat!" They did as instructed and caught a net of 153 big fish, no more and no less. This is the only miracle after Jesus' resurrection recorded in the Bible that is associated with a number. You know, a fisherman seldom counts his fish -- even he does, he counts in a rough number, not in an exact number -- there is little reason for doing the latter. What is so unusual about 153? As some of you might have known:

153 = 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + ... + 17

And the number 17 is associated with Noah's Ark (it rested on the Mountain of Ararat on the 17th of the month) and the Lord Jesus' resurrection (on the 17th as well). Amazingly, the Greek noun for "fish" in "153 big fish" occurs in the whole Bible in 17 verses

ore about 153:

153 = 1 + 1x2 + 1x2x3 + 1x2x3x4 + 1x2x3x4x5
( or = 1! + 2! + 3! + 4! + 5!)

153 = (12x12) + (3x3)

153 = 3x3x17

Most interestingly, 153 will resurrect itself when we apply a function
called "Trinity Function" to it:

153 => 1x1x1 + 5x5x5 + 3x3x3 = 153

Usually, when we apply this function to other numbers, the Trinity Function will convert them to different numbers, for example

12 => 1x1x1 + 2x2x2 = 9;
123 => 1x1x1 + 2x2x2 + 3x3x3 = 36.

Further more, the numbers 17 and 153 are directly related to a number in the Old Testament, 969, which is the longest years a man of flesh (Methuselah, Genesis 5:27) ever lived on earth according to the Bible. What is the connection?

To express this structure in a geometrical shape with 969 tennis balls, it is a solid tetrahedron containing 4 facets (each facet having 153 balls) and 6 sides (each side having 17 balls). The following drawing shows what a tetrahedron is. A tetrahedron is simply the manifestation of a triangle in the 3D world, or reversely, the latter is simply the projection of the former in the 2D world:

What is the hidden message here? Well, the hidden message is the same as what the Bible claims in the surface text: Jesus rose from the dead on the 17th in order for us to resurrect (symbolized in 153) from the dead when He comes the second time. This is eternal life (symbolized in 969), promised before, enjoyed by us now, and fully realized in four aspects (spirit, mind, soul and body) in the future.

The above examples involve only numbers in the surface text of the Bible. In order to go to the depth of Bible's numerical structure, one has to use GEM ATRIA. Gem atria is an ancient science of working out the numerical value of a word or sentence based on a one-to-one correspondence between letters of the alphabet and their numbers.

For both Hebrew and Greek [the two languages used in the original text of the Bible], each of their letters has a dual function: (1) to form words and (2) to use for counting. (See Hebrew and Greek tables). Because of this one-to-one letter-number correspondence, the whole text of the Bible, if viewed numerically, is a huge collection of numbers. In other words, the Bible is like a gigantic, super building that is constructed solely of numbers. The natural question is: Is there a pattern in this super structure? The answer is YES!

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Osama--

Just so I can understand where you're coming from, please answer this for me:

How does numerical miracle = perfect preservation (since that's what this thread is about?)

Thanks
-Nabeel

Anonymous said...

Osama, where is the point in this?

I mean, it's like making ring of fire appear with a blue elefant, dancing with a goose appear and disappear after 5 seconds, only was less impressive.

I've seen people find rare triangular numbers in Genesis 1:1 by "decoding" it. I have watched them "detecting" e=2,718... and pi=3,141... in Genesis and John 1:1 and predicting Hitler using the bible code.

All pretty interesting, but think about it: What is the point of this?
Why insert some hidden numerical miracle in a book, if you can use other arguments?

If you were God and wanted to proof it using a book and you would want to use scientific and numerical miracles, wouldn't you rather write:

"I am God the almighty, listen to my revelation.
One day, you will be able to measure the speed of light.
It will turn out to be 299792458 m/s and if you square it and multiply it with your mass, you will get your total amount of energy.
But there is more. Consider the following mathematical formula:

If you add up 1^-s + 2^-2 + 3-^s until infinity were s can change, you get a mathematical expression which contains much informations about prime numbers (which are natural numbers you can only divide by itself and 1). Then let i be an imaginary number, which has the square -1. Let z be a complex number, which has a real and an imaginary part. Let's say, 2+3i, where 2 is the real part and 3 is the imaginary part. Now, the sum I described earlier will become zero for certain values. Those values do all have the real part 1/2. Here is my proof:
[insert proof]

You want still more? Here are the first 100 Lengedre-prime-numbers:
[...]

But I know even more. Let me explain you what I call "quantum physics" ...

Now, let's turn to life. It got started this way: ...

Now, you might not be able to verify this yet. So let me give you a poem that is so stunning that you will have to believe me:
[awesome poem that makes _everyone_ convert]

There is more. Here is how you can find the many numerical miracles in this text:
[how to find 1001 miracles in this text]

You want to know why I exist? Here you have an irrefutable ontological proof
[...]

Now, go worship me.

P.S. I don't shoot stars at demons."

And by the way, I'm pretty sure that I could to something like this odd-even-miracle if I wanted to.

Osama Abdallah said...

Dear Nabeel,

What you've shown is a game of numbers and hoaxes, like that 1*1*1 + 5*5*5 + 3*3*3 = 153
12 => 1x1x1 + 2x2x2 = 9;
123 => 1x1x1 + 2x2x2 + 3x3x3 = 36.

What I've shown you was a clear-cut and straight forward and very simple, yet QUITE POWERFUL, Miracle!


Now to your question:

"How does numerical miracle = perfect preservation (since that's what this thread is about?)"

MY ANSWER:

Since we have perfect accuracy that could not have been invented by man, and since Allah Almighty DOES PROMISE TO SHOW THE SCIENTIFIC MIRACLES OF THE HOLY QURAN TO MANKIND, then I am left with amazement:

"We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and INSIDE THEIR SELVES, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things? (The Noble Quran, 41:53)"

And, if you do find a very stunning, NOT A GAME, Numerical Miracle in a section in the Bible, then it is quite possible that that section is a Divine Truth from GOD Almighty. As a Muslim, I do believe that there exists Divine Truth in the previous Scriptures (inside the Bible and out).

I hope that you do see the Divine Truth of the Holy Quran, Nabeel.

Have a good day,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

Furthermore Nabeel,

The Miracle that I showed you is 100% dependent on the total number of the Noble Verses and Noble Chapters of the Holy Quran.

May be this is Allah Almighty's Way of Showing that the Holy Quran that we have today is indeed PERFECTLY PRESERVED.

Again, http://www.answering-christianity.com/odd_even_miracle.xls

You can also visit the main section at:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm

Have a good day,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Anonymous said...

Osama, how is "if we add those verses with those chapters and add the even ones and add the chapters ..." different from "Let's use the trinitarian formula on this number so we get this result..."?

Osama Abdallah said...

To clarify more for you Nabeel,

ADD ONE CHAPTER to the Quran and the whole Miracle is out.

ADD ONE NOBLE VERSE to the Quran and the whole Miracle is out.


I see a very clear Divine Message from Allah Almighty in this.

May Allah Almighty Guide you to Islam, Nabeel. Ameen.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

David Wood said...

Osama said: "This joke was destroyed by brining the MOBY DICK BOOK and doing the same thing with it. The same "prophecies" could be found at Moby Dick."

They did something completely different with Moby Dick and other books. The so-called debunkers would look for evenly spaced letters that form a sentence. That's not what the defenders of the Bible codes did. With the Bible codes, they would look for a word or phrase made up of evenly spaced letters, then they would carry out the sequence to see if there's a hidden message.

So, apples and oranges.

With that said, I think all this talk of codes is an act of sheer desperation for someone (you) who has no actual evidence.

Osama said: "ADD ONE CHAPTER to the Quran and the whole Miracle is out. ADD ONE NOBLE VERSE to the Quran and the whole Miracle is out."

So the "miracle" wouldn't work with Ibn Masud's Qur'an, or with Ubayy ibn Ka'b's Qur'an? And it wouldn't work with all of the lost surahs, or the verses eaten by a goat, or the missing sections of Surah 33? Indeed, you're saying that it wouldn't even work with Zaid's original version of the Qur'an (which he compiled under Abu Bakr), since that Qur'an had a different number of Surahs.

So before you begin arguing that the Qur'an we have today is miraculous, you have to show that it contains everything that was supposed to be in the Qur'an. As far as the evidence is concerned, the Qur'an is missing all kinds of things, has added several things, etc.

El-Cid said...

Osama said: "Dear Nabeel,

What you've shown is a game of numbers and hoaxes..."

That's exactly what your claims about the Quran look like. You seem to be missing the obvious, Osama, so let me help you out:

Nabeel already said he finds the "numbers" and "codes" to be very poor argumentation and unimpressive. However, he has demonstrated that it can be shown that other books besides the Quran can display the same type of numerical attributes.

Osama, Shabir Ally dropped all these "Quran codes" arguments years ago. There is a reason he did.

Also, how exactly does any of this prove the 'perfect preservation' of the Quran?? How does any of this answer the original post about ibn Masud and the MSS?

Seems to me you are just off-topic. Perhaps you are unable to defend against the claims about the textual history of the Quran?

David Wood said...

Yes, notice Osama's inconsistency.

Christian: "There are codes in the Bible!"

Osama: "Ha! One can find the same codes in other books, so your claim is meaningless!"

Earlier, we had:

Osama: "There are codes in the Qur'an!"

Nabeel: "We can find these sorts of codes in other books, so your claim is meaningless."

And yet Osama rejects Nabeel's point, despite the fact that it's the same response Osama used when confronted with the "miraculous" codes of the Bible!

Sheer inconsistency. Perhaps one day we'll meet a consistent Muslim (apart from the one who concluded that Muhammad never existed).

The Fat Man said...

David Wood said...
Concerning the PalTalk chatroom, I think we should begin by discussing various issues, as has been suggested; then, over time, we can slowly evolve into an apologetics training room. We can have reading assignments, discussions on the readings, practice debates, etc. What does everyone think?

I think that is a great idea. If you guys pull something like that off count me in. I promise I will even behave in your room.

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Osama:
What you've shown is a game of numbers and hoaxes...
What I've shown you was a clear-cut and straight forward and very simple, yet QUITE POWERFUL, Miracle!


Umm, Osama, you ignored almost everything I quoted for you! According to this website:

The number 153 is a special number, since it is the only number associated with a miracle after Jesus' resurrection.

It just so happens that if you sum up all the numbers from 1 to 17, you get 153! And 17 is important, because it's the date of Jesus' resurrection (not to mention Noah's ark!)

On top of that, the Greek word that's used for "fish" in that verse is used exactly 17 times in the Bible!

Not only that, but if you apply the trinity to these verses, then we see the numbers are even more miraculous! 3 x 3 x 17 = 153!!

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! The trinity is present again if you raise each of the THREE digits in "153" to the THIRD power, including the number THREE!!! Look, there are three three's, so much emphasis on trinity!
1x1x1 + 5x5x5 + 3x3x3 = 153!

Trinity in the digits, trinity in the math, trinity in the miracle itself!!! So much trinity!

Wouldn't you admit this is a miracle?!

And since the Greek word for "fish" is used 17 times throughout the Bible, the Bible must have been written by God exactly as it is and perfectly preserved!

Clearly this is a most wonderful divine miracle of numbers, verses, and textual preservation!

... well, at least by your reasoning it is :-) I'd be interested to see how you respond when you don't ignore what is being said.

-Nabeel

Osama Abdallah said...

David Wood and Nabeel and the rest,

This is not the only Miracle in the Holy Quran. There are tons more that all add up to prove that the Holy Quran is indeed the Holy and Divine Truth from Allah Almighty:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links


Ultimately, it is Allah Almighty Who Leads people into Islam. He, the Almighty Said:

"The Unbelievers say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "Truly God leaveth, to stray, whom He will; But He guideth to Himself those who turn to Him in penitence,- (The Noble Quran, 13:27)"

Allah Almighty Also Said:

"It is he whom God guides, that is on true Guidance; but he whom He leaves astray - for such wilt thou find no protector besides Him. On the Day of Judgment We shall gather, them together, prone on their faces, blind, dumb, and deaf: their abode will be Hell: every time it shows abatement, We shall increase from them the fierceness of the Fire. (The Noble Quran, 17:97)"

When you already have your mind setup to go astray, then reason becomes obselete, except if Allah Almighty Wills otherwise.

It doesn't matter what type of Miracles we show you from the Holy Quran. You will continue to follow man's speculations and corruptions, that even your own bible-theologians admit that the books and gospels had been altered and corrupted by men. You're so pathetically desperate to prove your corrupt text that you have to use Islam's Quran to prove your Bible. At least when we use the parts of the Bible that agree with the Holy Quran, we have a leg to stand on, because these texts might be remnants of Divine Truth.BUT WHEN YOU DO IT WITH OUR SCRIPTURES, IT CLEARLY AND INDESPUTABLY SHOWS HOW DESPERATE AND PATHETIC YOU AND YOUR RELIGION ARE.

I feel sorry for you, and I feel sorry for those whom you deceive with you. I guess you are destined to be doomed in Hell. I, unfortunately, don't seem to would be able to help you.

Those so-called Miracles in the Bible aren't Miracles, because you could still dump 10 man-made books into the Bible and still have them be there. And your Bible is a mix of man-made alterations and corruptions. The Holy Quran, on the other hand, is pure and One. That is why we only have one Holy Quran today. Why would we want more than one if we wanted to truly follow Allah Almighty's Divine Truth perfectly. We leave the conjecture and speculations and doubts and corruptions to you to spin with.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Osama--

So, in other words, you've got no response to the arguments?

-Nabeel

David Wood said...

OSAMA: "Here's my awesome argument for numerical miracles in the Qur'an! Now accept Islam!"

NABEEL: "Here's a similar argument for numerical miracles in the Bible. Why don't you accept Christianity?"

OSAMA: "You're hell bound! Stubborn and hard-hearted! You're a rebel against God!"

It seems I've heard all of this before.

El-Cid said...

Osama said: "...www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links...."

Osama, while I would like very much to follow your link (I'm sure it would be quite amusing), I am unable to visit www.answering-christianity.com because of it's ongoing virus problems.

I took it at face value when you said you cleaned the viruses from your site a few days ago, however, my anti-viral had to destroy a trojan at your website.

It is irresponsible of you to continue inviting people to view your website now that you have been made aware of this problem.

Why are you inviting people to a website that you know has malicious viruses?

Fernando said...

Usama said: «QUITE POWERFUL, Miracle!»... how must be the mind of sommeone to believe in such things?

El-Cid said: «It is irresponsible of you to continue inviting people to view your website now that you have been made aware of this problem. Why are you inviting people to a website that you know has malicious viruses?»

1) jihad is everywhere... Usama does not wante to debete, he wantes to wage jihad...;

2) I think we alreadie have enough evidence to prossecute someone who clearly is doing a criminal action...

Osama Abdallah said...

David Wood,

It is unethical of you to add DOUBLE QUOTES for statements that I did not speak.


Are you desperately trying to prove that I am somehow dying to get glorified and praised by people? Why are you constantly trying to paint me as something contrary to my personality? What is this nonesense about "MY AWSOME ARGUMENT..."?

I think my last post said it all: I'll leave you to Allah Almighty to determine whether you embrace Islam or not. I can't help you there.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Taylor said...

I'm still waiting for any hadith which says to distrust Ibn Mas'ud.

Royal Son said...

"I'm still waiting for any hadith which says to distrust Ibn Mas'ud."

You and me both. I'm also waiting for a verse or hadith which tells us to distrust the bible, or Paul.

Osama Abdallah said...

Dear Talor and Royal Son,

I am not aware of any Hadith. However, your request is not valid for the following reasons:

1- As I mentioned before, it was a committee of top Quranic Scholars, who were in the 10s, who compiled and wrote the Holy Quran that we have today in Arabic.

2- The compilation of the Holy Quran began during the 1st Islamic Caliph's time, Abu Baker, and ultimately finished by the 3rd Islamic Caliph, Uthman.

3- The quote the you have on Ibn Masood is isolated and doubtful, because it doesn't come from among the strongest Islamic Hadith sources, nor is it supported by many independent narrators. Just because somebody narrated that he heard Ibn Masood say it, IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT IT IS TRUE. That is why it is important to determine if the narration is strong or weak.

4- Even if we take the worse case scenario and say that Ibn Masood said it, then this still doesn't mean anything because again, it was the MANY TOP QURANIC SCHOLARS who determined what is valid and what is not and not Uthman or any other mere layman. Ibn Masood in this case would be considered an obnoxious and stubborn person because he'd be going against the overwhelming number of scholars.

5- All Praise and Glory are due to Allah Almighty, and INFINITE THANKS TO HIM, we now can further know that the TOP QURANIC SCHOLARS' COMMITTEE's compilation was perfect, because we have STUNNING NUMERICAL MIRACLES in the Holy Quran that testify to the Holy Book's PERFECT PRESERVATION.

Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/odd_even_miracle.xls and many other links also at:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links

I hope this helps.

Have a good day,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

And even if Ibn Masood was VERY SINCERE AND STRONGLY BELIEVED IN HIS POSITION, this still doesn't take away the possibility that the old man was probably having a fading memory, like all of us have.

I mean for GOD's Sake there are 6236 Noble Verses in 114 Noble Surahs (Chapters)! THAT'S A LOT OF VERSES! :-). A lone man could go wrong in memory. It's normal and natural.

Have a good day,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Royal Son said...

Osama wrote:

Dear Talor and Royal Son,

I am not aware of any Hadith. However, your request is not valid for the following reasons:


Okay, everyone, just before we get into Osama's points, please do be aware of what he has just admitted, i.e. There exists not a single verse from the Quran or a hadith which states that the Bible has been corrupted or that Paul or Ibn Mas'ud is untrustworthy

Now let's check his reasons one by one as to why he doesn't need any:

1- As I mentioned before, it was a committee of top Quranic Scholars, who were in the 10s, who compiled and wrote the Holy Quran that we have today in Arabic.

This means absolutely nothing. Ibn Mas'ud was hand picked from Mohammed himself.

2- The compilation of the Holy Quran began during the 1st Islamic Caliph's time, Abu Baker, and ultimately finished by the 3rd Islamic Caliph, Uthman.

Neither Abu Baker, nor Uthman were hand picked among the 4 teachers to be followed, Mas'ud was. It was also said of him, "He was the closest to the Prophet in character." Can you say the same about any other? This is not someone you shouldn't throw out so easily, simply because he disagreed with Uthman on the number of surahs.

3- The quote the you have on Ibn Masood is isolated and doubtful, because it doesn't come from among the strongest Islamic Hadith sources, nor is it supported by many independent narrators. Just because somebody narrated that he heard Ibn Masood say it, IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT IT IS TRUE. That is why it is important to determine if the narration is strong or weak.

Even if you want to consider a narration to be weak does not negate its authenticity. At the very least, you should say,"This is certainly possible" but to simply throw out the baby with the bath water is not the way to do theology.

4- Even if we take the worse case scenario and say that Ibn Masood said it, then this still doesn't mean anything because again, it was the MANY TOP QURANIC SCHOLARS who determined what is valid and what is not and not Uthman or any other mere layman. Ibn Masood in this case would be considered an obnoxious and stubborn person because he'd be going against the overwhelming number of scholars.

And yet it was said of him, and I repeat myself here that he was the closest in character to Mohammed. So if you wish to call Mohammed Obnoxious and stubborn, then perhaps I might find something to agree with you here. As for the number of scholars that agree with Uthman, how do you know they weren't forced to agree? What's more, at least two out of the four companions recommended by Mohammed had differing numbers of Surahs.

5- All Praise and Glory are due to Allah Almighty, and INFINITE THANKS TO HIM, we now can further know that the TOP QURANIC SCHOLARS' COMMITTEE's compilation was perfect, because we have STUNNING NUMERICAL MIRACLES in the Holy Quran that testify to the Holy Book's PERFECT PRESERVATION.

If that is the case, Surah 22:52-53 would never say what it says.

Osama Abdallah said...

Royal Son,

I apologize for missing your question about if we have a Hadith that says the Bible is corrupt. Yes we do have many Hadiths:

Narrated Ubaidullah: "Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!" (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)"

Please visit: www.answering-christianity.com/warning.htm

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

STOCK TIPS said...

http://www.answering-ansar.org/challenges/quran_and_family/en/index.php

To summarize this position:


1. At the death of the Prophet Muhammad (saw) the Qur'an was scattered among the people.

2. Zaib bin Thabit regarded it easier to move one mountain then to compile the Qur'an.

3. That the Prophet[saww] died without clarifying the locations of the Surah of the Qur'an, so it was up to Uthman to decide the position of Surah al-Tawbah.

4. Hadhrath Umar was afraid that the Qur'an would be lost so he wanted to compile the Qur'an. Whilst the Prophet did not take heed of such a matter because he[saww] did not make any attempt to compile the Qur'an.

Mansoor said...

Here is in-depth reply by brother Hamza A. Bajwa "Codifying Gilchrist’s Errors over Ibn Mas’ud’s Codex"

Click http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6103974/f/IBN_MAS_UD.doc

Abu Laila Al Afriki said...

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/qur_anic_variants
refutation

danish said...

Hello,

The MAIN Significant difference between Zaid and Ibn Masud is that according to Ibn Masud (himself) he memorized around 70 chapters of Quran before the death of Prophet Muhammed (Peace be on him).
WHILE ZAID memorized all the 114 Chapter of Quran in the Lifetime of Prophet Muhammed (Peace be on him).

Obviously Zaid is more preferred since he memorized entire Quran of 114 Chapters, compared to Ibn Masud who memorizied only 70 Chapters (before death of Prophet Muhammed).

Zaid who memorized 114 chapters reconfirmed his memorized chapters of Quran with several companions of Prophet as seen in several hadith of Sahih Bukhari.

Below are details from Muslims 2nd most important Prophet's Hadith book (after topmost Divine GOD's book of Holy Quran), FATH AL-BARI Sharh Bukhari.

[FATH AL-BARI, VOL 9, P 13 - Sharh Sahih Bukhari]
A summation of Zaid’s appointment and status in comparison to Ibn Mas’ud is aptly stated by Abu Bakr al-Anbari:

“The fact that Abu Bakr, ‘Umar and ‘Uthman chose Zaid in the matter of collecting the Qur’an does not mean that they were putting him over ‘Abdullah ibn Mas’ud. ‘Abdullah was better than Zaid, older in Islam, had attended more battles and possessed more virtues. Zaid, however, knew more of the Qur’an than ‘Abdullah since he had memorised it all during the lifetime of the Messenger of Allah (upon whom be peace), whereas ‘Abdullah had only memorised about seventy chapters while the Messenger of Allah (upon whom be peace) was alive and learned the rest after his death. The one who knew the entire Qur’an and memorised it while the Messenger of Allah (upon whom be peace) was alive was more entitled to compile the Qur’an and to be preferred and chosen to do so. No ignorant person should suppose that this is an attack on ‘Abdullah ibn Mas’ud since the fact that Zaid had the better memory of the Qur’an of the two does not mean that he should be preferred to him in general terms because Zaid also knew more Qur’an than Abu Bakr and ‘Umar, and he was certainly not better than them or equal to them in virtue.”

dapiot holmp said...

What if a muslim responded to this saying that the sources about ibn massud having a different number of chapters i.e. Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, and Ibn Abi Daud's Kitab al-Masahif are not strong sources because they are not sahih bukhari or sahih muslim.. Or even that they are not sahih hadith?

Regards