Monday, February 23, 2009

Beheaded Muslim Woman Called a "Martyr" for Islam

Remember the Muslim woman who was recently beheaded by her husband in an honor-killing? In an extraordinarily strange turn of events, Muslim leaders are claiming that she is a martyr for Islam's image.

Buffalo News--The lives of Muzzammil and Aasiya Hassan were quite different from their public image in the local Muslim and broadcast communities.

In the public eye, they were a dynamic couple, building their — actually her — dream of a Muslim-lifestyle TV channel in the United States.

But police reports compiled for much of their marriage tell another story:

Their home life was a nightmare. Aasiya was repeatedly subjected to controlling and sometimes violent acts by her ambitious but troubled husband.

To protect herself, she went to the police in two states. Yet for years she stopped short of pressing charges — thus preserving Muzzammil’s reputation and the venture they built together.

On Feb. 6, she filed for divorce and obtained an order of protection, barring him from their home in Orchard Park. A week later, she lay dead in their television offices — stabbed and decapitated. Muzzammil was charged with her murder.

“I think of Aasiya as a martyr,” said Faizan Haq, a local professor who helped launch Bridges TV, the station in Orchard Park that the Hassans started in 2004. “She has given her life to protect the image of American Muslims. And as an American Muslim community, we owe it to her not to let this happen again.” Read More.

I'm sorry, but Muslims don't get to claim this woman as a martyr. If she's a martyr, she's a martyr for women who take a stand against their violent husbands.

98 comments:

Anonymous said...

I think it's more ironic that the husband wanted to improve the picture of muslims.

Fernando said...

And he has donne soo... at the eyes off fellow muslimes...

Ibn said...

Wood, can you open a thread on the Satanic Verses? I'd like to test my argument.

Nakdimon said...

And if your argument fails miserably, as have all other arguments against the reliability of the testimonies, what will your conclusion be? Back to the drawing board? Or this man cannot be trusted?

Ibn said...

Nakdimoron:And if your argument fails miserably, as have all other arguments against the reliability of the testimonies, what will your conclusion be? Back to the drawing board? Or this man cannot be trusted?

My argument is more philosophical and theological in nature. I believe if the theology and philosophy underlying my argument are true, then the historicity of the incident in question is extremely unlikely.

Nakdimon said...

Ibn, that doesn’t have to be the case. If your theological and philosophical theories can be countered with counter-theologies and philosophies then your entire argument falls to the ground. Because that’s all that you have, theological and philosophical presuppositions. Based on the earliest records, there are enough reasons to believe that your prophet spoke for Satan.

But by all means, bring em on.

Ibn said...

Nakdimoron:Ibn, that doesn’t have to be the case. If your theological and philosophical theories can be countered with counter-theologies and philosophies then your entire argument falls to the ground.

That's what I am dying to know!

Let's see if Wood has the valor to engage me.

Royal Son said...

Valour aye? :)

Ibn, tell me, what do you know about the principle of embarrassment and do you think one can consistently apply it to Islamic literature and still remain a muslim?

Yahya Hayder Seymour said...

Professor Wood,

You are being Pathetic, your comment at the end of the post is like me saying:

1) A Women killed by her Evangelical Drunk, Drug Addict Husband is not a Christian Martyr.

2) A Pacifist Christian protesting against the Crusades is not a Christian Martyr because Christians killed them.

I'm sorry, but unless you are privy to any information about her despising Islam or wanting to leave the religion, then your argument is just lame.

David Wood said...

Yahya,

This woman spent her life proclaiming Islam. But she didn't die for proclaiming Islam. No one came and cut off her head for proclaiming Islam.

Instead, she was beheaded for attempting to leave a man who took Surah 4:3 far more seriously than the Muslims on this blog do. She was killed in an honor killing for attempting to flee Muslim rules about wife-beating.

So, it makes no sense for Muslims to claim her as a martyr for Islam.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Ibn wrote:

My argument is more philosophical and theological in nature. I believe if the theology and philosophy underlying my argument are true, then the historicity of the incident in question is extremely unlikely.

Elijah replies:

Interesting Ibn

Now I don't intend to start a debate on the Trinity here, I am merely considering your methodology, but would you then say that you reject e.g. the Trinity for philosophical reasons, that the ability of reason God has given you does not permit you to accept such an idea?

Ibn said...

Hogan:Now I don't intend to start a debate on the Trinity here, I am merely considering your methodology, but would you then say that you reject e.g. the Trinity for philosophical reasons, that the ability of reason God has given you does not permit you to accept such an idea?

Yes. Now can we start a post on the Satanic Verses?

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Yeah go ahead with the debate on teh Satanic verses.

Now I am just trying to figure out (based upon your methodology) the amount of Islam I have to reject since the natural reasoning ability God has equipped me with, convinces me that Islam and the Qur'an are anything but divine.

Such seven heavens and seven earths, found in the writings of Plato and a number of Greek philosophers, the Talmud and early Christian church fathers.

Or the whole idea that the heavens was splitted from the earth, a ridcolous idea also found in the writings of early Philosophers.

And that the heavens were smoke, also found in the writings of early Greek philosophy and the writings of Irenaeus.

Do I need to continue, it is far too obvious that the author of the Qur'an was highly influnced by the ideas and the language of the time.

If I apply philosophy here and reasoing all this is simply rejecting my ability God has given me to think and to reason.

Osama Abdallah said...

David Wood,

Honor killing does not exist in Islam! This is cultural garbage that inherited from Hinduism.
In Hinduism there are practices like the SATI PRACTICE where if you die, then your wife must be BURNT ALIVE so that her soul would go with yours. The vise versa doesn't happen. If she dies, then you don't die.

FURTHERMORE, those who do honor killing in Islam are answered by this Noble Verse:

"If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of God are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him. (The Noble Quran, 4:93)"

AND ALSO THIS NOBLE VERSE:

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (The Noble Quran, 5:32)"

HONOR KILLING IN ISLAM IS A LIE AND HAPPENS ONLY FROM IGNORANT FOOLS.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

HONOR KILLING HAPPENS MOSTLY AMONG PAKISTANIS AND INDIANS! This is again because of their hindu anscestery!

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

So yes, the woman was a Martyr. She died as an innocent person.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Royal Son said...

Ibn, I think you might have unintentionally skipped over my questions. Let me ask again. What do you know about the principle of embarrassment and do you think one can consistently apply it to Islamic literature and still remain a muslim?

Ibn said...

Royal:Ibn, I think you might have unintentionally skipped over my questions. Let me ask again. What do you know about the principle of embarrassment and do you think one can consistently apply it to Islamic literature and still remain a muslim?

Actually, I skipped your questions intentionally. I'm more interested in debating Wood than his groupies.

Royal Son said...

Lol, I'm a groupie now. Actually I haven't been on this blog for all that long. Anyways, I'll ask the resident Scholar, Osama the question since Ibn is in debate mode on the Satanic verses.

Oh and just some food for thought regaring Satanic verses and the Quran:

Al-Hajj 52-53 says "Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise; (52) That He may make that which the devil proposeth a temptation for those in whose hearts is a disease, and those whose hearts are hardened - Lo! the evil-doers are in open schism - (53)"

Back to Osama:

What do you know about the principle of embarrassment and do you think one can consistently apply it to Islamic literature and still remain a muslim?

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Yahya--

The primary definition of "martyr" is someone who dies for his or her beliefs. This woman did not die for her beliefs, she was the victim of a murder.

In your example number 1, that person is not a martyr unless her drunk husband killed her because she was a Christian.

In your example number 2, if the Christian was killed because of his pacifism, then he is a martyr for pacifism.

I hope you understand the primary definition a bit better now. Regards,

-Nabeel

Osama Abdallah said...

Royal Son,

The satanic verses are covered in great details at: www.answering-christianity.com/satanic_verses.htm

As to your question, I am not sure what you mean. In Islam, no one has the right to just kill. The verses that I gave to David Wood are more than sufficient. And there are tons more.

Please visit: www.answering-christianity.com/muslim_polytheists.htm

AND

www.answering-christianity.com/jihad.htm


Have a good day,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

Nabeel,

you said: The primary definition of "martyr" is someone who dies for his or her beliefs. This woman did not die for her beliefs, she was the victim of a murder."

ANSWER:

Your answer is not complete. A person who also dies unjustly or for a good cause, AND HAPPENS TO BE A MUSLIM IS ALSO A MARTYR. The Prophet peace be upon him gave few examples on this such as:

1- A Muslim dying defending his house from an attack.

2- A Muslim dying seeking education.

3- A Muslim dying unjustly without deserving it.

And so on...

So yes, the woman is a Martyr, because her death, based on the information that we have, is a RIDICULOUS AND UNJUSTIFIED ONE.

Have a good day,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Osama--

When speaking English in the west, such as David was doing when he made his post, we tend to use generally accepted definitions of words, and not Muhammad's definitions.

Don't forget the context of Yahya's response.

-Nabeel

Osama Abdallah said...

Nabeel,

What kind of a response is this? Whether one is in the West or not, Religious terminologies have to always be taken and applied within context and properly. I have defined to you what a Martyr is in Islam. You say that Prophet Muhammad's, peace be upon him, definition is somehow irrelevant??

And by the way, YOU ARE AN INDIAN. So, so much for your "we here in the West."

Have a good day,
Osama Abdallah

Osama Abdallah said...

And Nabeel,

Applying your logic, if there is any in your previous post, then this means that "adultery" is not to be understood the way the NT wants it, because according to the NT, one lustful look is adultery, while the West understands it as sexual intercourse.

Can you explain to us how the West should understand adultery in the context of Christianity if christianity should not be applied?

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Royal Son said...

Osama I asked you if you know about the principle of embarrassment and if someone can consistently apply it and yet still remain a muslim. then you replied:

"As to your question, I am not sure what you mean. In Islam, no one has the right to just kill. The verses that I gave to David Wood are more than sufficient. And there are tons more."

Sir I thought you are supposed to be a scholar and apologist of Islam. You are not familiar with the principle of embarrassment? Okay, well here goes. The principle of embarrassment basically states that records of events in history made by followers of an individual that include embarrassing details of the one they are following are very likely to be trustworthy and reliable.
e.g. The Jews making a golden calf idol, Peter being called Satan by Jesus, Paul praying three times and not having his prayer answered, etc. These things appear to be embarrassing details and yet they appear in the bible. Such accounts are therefore likely to be true. I want to know now if you believe that a Muslim can apply the principle of embarrassment to Hadiths which seem to record embarrassing things about Mohammed, believe them, and still remain a Muslim ?

Nakdimon said...

Royal Son wrote: Al-Hajj 52-53 says "Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise; (52) That He may make that which the devil proposeth a temptation for those in whose hearts is a disease, and those whose hearts are hardened - Lo! the evil-doers are in open schism - (53)"


Yeah, Ibn, Royal Son makes a good point here. If this verse is true then Muhammad at one time spoke for Satan. Even Allah says so, yet you deny that. I pray thee, when did he do that?

And we also have the Bukhari narration about the SV, but he leaves all the juicy details out. Care to comment on that?

Bukhari Volume 2, Book 19, Number 177: Narrated Ibn Abbas: The Prophet prostrated while reciting An-Najm and with him prostrated the Muslims, the pagans, the jinns, and all human beings.

What was it that made the pagans prostrate with Muhammad and his companions if not for the SV?? The "oh the recitation was so beautiful"-argument will not work, since the Meccans chased him and his companions off afterwards.

Nakdimon

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Osama-

Let me replay this for you.

David: "This woman was not a martyr."
Yahya: "You are being pathetic! If she's not a martyr, neither are these people" (Yahya then uses a definition of martyr that goes contrary to the primary definition, which is what David intended).
Nabeel: "Yahya, here is the primary definition of martyr. Now you'll be able to understand what David meant."
Osama: "Nabeel, you must incorporate Muhammad's definition when talking about how David used it! Your definition is incomplete!"

No, Osama, my definition was thoroughly complete. My whole purpose was to point out that when David said this woman was not a martyr, he's using the word as it is most often used in the English language.

That's how proper interpretation happens, Osama. You're supposed to interpret a word meaning according to its context and its most likely meaning. I'm sure if you try doing that, you might start understanding our arguments better. Maybe you'll even start understanding our posts and comments better, too.

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Osama:
And by the way, YOU ARE AN INDIAN. So, so much for your "we here in the West."

DO YOU JUST ARGUE WITH EVERYONE FOR FUN?! This is just plain ridiculous!

I said "We here in the West" and you respond against that?! I HAVE NEVER LIVED ANYWHERE BUT THE US AND THE UK, I'M CURRENTLY IN VIRGINIA USA, and somehow I'm wrong when I say "we here in the West"?

Osama, this is why it's not worth debating you! You wont even agree with a man who says "I'm in the west" when he's clearly in the west!

When you disagree with things that are obviously true, why do you think people would want to debate you on complicated matters?

Now you're just wasting our time.

David Wood said...

Nabeel, when you say, "DO YOU JUST ARGUE WITH EVERYONE FOR FUN?! This is just plain ridiculous!" are you using the normal English meanings, or Muslim meanings, or Indian meanings? I can't understand your words until you specify.

Anonymous said...

Royal Son,
what you fail to grasp is that even muslims admit that earlier muslims made stuff up. The look at this and say "Look, Muhammed is splitting the moon here after turning rocks into jewels. He's finding the cure for AIDS and a unified theory of quantum gravity. He made prophecies like 'On the day of 9/11, some jews disguised as muslims will destroy the twin towers". What great miracles, scientific knowledge and prophetic accuracy!"
And when you ask them "What about the embarassing stuff?" The response is that bad muslims OBVIOUSLY made that up.

And when it comes to extreme nonsense (Jesus talking in the cradle, giving life to a bird made of clay, Abraham being delivered from the fire, stars are missiles to shoot at demons), then we can't prove it to be false.

Makes perfect sense.

Anonymous said...

Nabeel, maybe Muhammad had his own definition of "west"?

Fernando said...

Professor Wood... can you start a thread on the Fitna between shia an sunni islam... I'd likke to testt mie argumentes... I don't wante to do this in a muslime site or blogue... you woulde be doing a great help for the cause os islam... and to you all: I'm onlie speaking to Professor Wood... so: be quiet, please, or less... bie the way: don't forget thate I've much more important thingues to do than to bee blogging and debating islamophobes around here... Even Usama told me not to be around here... nontheless, coul you open that thread? Thanks...

Mie foonie friende Ibn... sorrie to put this mirror in front off you... do you reallize how your words look like?

Osama Abdallah said...

Nabeel,

"Osama, this is why it's not worth debating you! You wont even agree with a man who says "I'm in the west" when he's clearly in the west!"

YOU ARE A CHILD!

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

Matthew,

"Nabeel, maybe Muhammad had his own definition of "west"?"

May be it's time for you to stop this childish nonesense of yours and start acting more mature.

If we use Mr. goofy's (Nabeel) logic here, then we CAN NOT escape the problem of how to define adultery in the context of Christianity IN THE WEST, when the west understands adultery to be illegal sexual activity, like cheating on your wife through a sexual intercourse. In Christianity, a lustful look is considered an adultery.

And by the way, EVEN YOUR ENGLISH BIBLES have adultery wrong, because if a single man looks lustfuly at a woman, then he is committing fornication, not adultery, because he is not married.

So how about for you and Nabeel to just shut up and grow up a little.

Nabeel - You keep flashing "I don't want to debate you" in my face like I am begging you to debate me. Dude, me being nice to you and apologizing if I have offended you in the past doesn't mean that I am kissing your butt to debate me. You can get lost to Hell for all I care. You are no more than a whining and silly child.

Have a good day,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

By the way,

"Have a good day," was meant for Matthew. Before I clicked the "Publish" button, I decided to add a note to Nabeel.

So the "Have a good day," was meant for Matthew alone.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

So much for dealing with silly and whining children!

DAN12345 said...

Osama said "And by the way, EVEN YOUR ENGLISH BIBLES have adultery wrong, because if a single man looks lustfuly at a woman, then he is committing fornication, not adultery, because he is not married."
No our english bible's havent got anything wrong,your are quoting jesus from the sermon on the mount,he was giving his updated version of the 10 commandments,jesus is saying even if we just look at a women lustfully we are commiting adultery,because we shouldnt be looking at women like they are pieces of meat,thats why women in muslim cultures need to be covered up or the muslim mens eyes would be all over the women,but by jesus showing us this updated new law it makes us not look at women lustfully as it is considered a grave sin,and god will call this sin ADULTERY,regardelss of if we are married or not!Osama you need to learn that in the bible we also have an option NOT TO MARRY.Not every man should marry,paul said that it is also better for a man to be not married,as when you are not married you can dedicate your life soley to GOD.Instead of your wife and god.Thats why are priest's give their life to god and dont marry.I would love to see if your imam's could do this but im sure they cannot as sex is a big attraction in islam.Every word of the bible is god's word,god breathed from the holy spirit,so we got options,marry and have 1 wife only,or not to marry,but regardless of both if you look at a women lustfully you have commited ADULTERY...

Osama Abdallah said...

Dear Dan,

I was not attacking the Bible at all in my post, nor was I degrading my Lord and coming Prophet and Leader against satan, Jesus Christ, peace be upon him. I was rather demonstrating that even in English, we have both adultery (for married people) and fornication (for single people).

Nabeel was speaking somehow arrogantly about us not supposed to apply the Islamic meanings and dimensions to the word "Martyr" because in the West they supposedly understand it differently. I used the adultery example to show that his point was weak. He then said that I am not worth debating :-).

Have a good day,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

DAN12345 said...

Martyr is somebody who dies FOR their religion,not because of their religion.For example if in the bible it says if you dont go to church on sunday you must be killed,so i dont go church and im killed,im not a martyr.But dying for my religion when under persecution is a martyr.A martyr is an innocent person in our religion who dies for his or her's religion,the love for god far outweighs the torture or the coming death of the person then when they die they are a martyr.An example for all time,a good book to read osama would be the "The lifes of the saints"many examples of the greatest martyr's are in that two volume book,even though you are muslim you will enjoy the book's,it shows how much a person can do,and how far they will go even to death and torture,all for GOD..

DAN12345 said...

The difference between christianity and islam is that by jesus's teaching's and his actions they are our example's,and they are perfection.We have to try and reach this perfection,even though it may be impossible,such as if somebody slaps one cheek let them slap the other,is this possible?has anyone got this patience to do this?and do not look at a women lustfully,surely every man is made to look at women and sometimes he thinks lustfully is it not so?so how is it possible to follow these commands?Well thats the point of these words,we are trying to reach perfection just as our heavenly father is perfection,and jesus is perfect.Even in islam jesus never sinned,muhammad said satan touches every baby when they are born thats why they cry,only jesus never cried.So this perfection we have to reach,even when it says in the bible"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"how can we reach these heights?well by trying to reach the top,some will get to the top,but at least if we dont reach the top we will get very near the top,thats the best we can do,by following perfection that is how we can reach gods glory and how god wants us to be.Thats why in our religion we aim for these seemingly unattainable acts,by aiming for perfection we will never fall short

Osama Abdallah said...

Dear Dan,

As I explained earlier to Nabeel, a Martyr in Islam is:

1- One who dies for his Islamic beliefs, as you also stated.

2- A Muslim who dies unjustly and is innocent.

3- A Muslim who dies for a good cause such as defending his land against attackers, dying while pursuing education, etc...


These points that I stated are based on Prophet Muhammad's Hadiths (Sayings), peace be upon him.

Have a good day,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Bfoali said...

Sallam brother Abdullah,
Yes very simple akhi,
in this post David is saying ''look now the husband or whom ever is calling her a martyr''
well yeah.....
According to the Sayings of the Prophet Muhammad

1- One who dies for his Islamic beliefs, as you also stated.

2- A Muslim who dies unjustly and is innocent.

3- A Muslim who dies for a good cause such as defending his land against attackers, dying while pursuing education, etc...
I copied that from Ossama's post btw.
So lets Summarize real fast. A Muslim is killed, UNJUSTLY. Muslims look at the sayings of the Prophet and notice who ever dies unjustly is a Martyr.
Muslim dies Unjustly + Prophet Muhamamd's (Pbuh) statement that if a muslim dies unjustly he is a martyr = A martyr
SIMPLE

Are You Kidding? said...

OA

Thanks for the clarification. I think I now understand what it means to be a martyr.

I do have a quick question: were the people that died in 9/11 (the people actually in the towers) martyrs? They were innocent and unjustly killed/murdered.

Were the hijackers martyrs or murderers?

I'm sure you can see how someone who doesn't understand the subtleties could be confused.

I look forward to hearing your answer. Your insights are very helpful. Thanks so much.

Osama Abdallah said...

Dear "Are you kidding",

The disbelievers, even when they die innocent, will never die as Martyrs.

And as to 9/11/2001, I've covered this in great details at:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/911_is_the_biggest_lie.htm

AND

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac5.htm#links

Have a good day,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Are You Kidding? said...

I see.

Were the hijackers murderers or martyrs?

A close personal friend died during the evil attack by wicked men. To me he was neither an unbeliever or a martyr. Just an innocent victim at the hands of people filled with hatred for human beings made in the image of God.

I cannot visit your website because I am at work and I cannot risk a virus. I'm sure you understand. Even if your website does not have any viruses as you strongly assert I cannot risk my company security. Thanks for understanding.

Osama Abdallah said...

There were no hijackers.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Royal Son said...

Matthew said: "Royal Son,
what you fail to grasp is that even muslims admit that earlier muslims made stuff up.


Matthew, I'd love to see early sources that reject things such as the Satanic verses. In fact, surah 22:52-53 is a confirmation of it in the Qur'an. I'd even go so far as to say that it testifies to the notion that Satanic verses are left in the Qur'an as a temptation for Muslims.

What I will say is that there are mentions of people such as Al Tabari who said he didn't check for the authenticity of the narrations he received, but I'd love to see a list of references of specific denials of narrations that speak Negatively of Mohammed's character. All we are told by Muslims today is that they are weak or fabricated. If Hadiths are considered weak, it simply means that there might not be multiple attestation or someone in the isnad might not be considered reliable, but it does not negate the possibility of its authenticity. If a hadith is considered to be fabricated, then there needs to be evidence to support that view. I want to see explicit denials or rejections from multiple sources to validate the rejection. Otherwise it's just one person's word against another's.

The look at this and say "Look, Muhammed is splitting the moon here after turning rocks into jewels. He's finding the cure for AIDS and a unified theory of quantum gravity. He made prophecies like 'On the day of 9/11, some jews disguised as muslims will destroy the twin towers". What great miracles, scientific knowledge and prophetic accuracy!"

I know that they try to stretch things incredibly to form their "miracles" and "prophetic utterances". That is no surprise to me. Even Zakir Naik popularised the notion that the earth is described as being egg-shaped, when the Quran never says such a thing.

And when you ask them "What about the embarassing stuff?" The response is that bad muslims OBVIOUSLY made that up.

Well that's what I wanted to get to. Basically from an outside observer's point of view, it seems to me that Islam cannot stand the test of the historical method of scrutiny.

And when it comes to extreme nonsense (Jesus talking in the cradle, giving life to a bird made of clay, Abraham being delivered from the fire, stars are missiles to shoot at demons), then we can't prove it to be false.

Makes perfect sense.

Osama Abdallah said...

"And when it comes to extreme nonsense (Jesus talking in the cradle, giving life to a bird made of clay, Abraham being delivered from the fire, stars are missiles to shoot at demons), then we can't prove it to be false."

Extreme nonsense? This is all nonsense, but Jesus, who fled for his life from King Herod to Egypt, being the Creator of the Universe, and walking on water and raising the dead isn't extreme nonsense to you?

I am really baffled at the type of common sense and logic is presented sometimes.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

www.answering-christianity.com/satanic_verses.htm

Are You Kidding? said...

I thought for a moment I understood. You mean those people that were gently guiding the aircraft into the World Trade Center towers were not hijackers? Can you please explain what they were? Is this another fluid definition that means something different to Muslims? I mean, men women and children went from being passengers to innocent hijacked victims on guided missiles (in the form of aircraft) by people that were coercing others and guiding them to their deaths. Not hijackers?

Please don't rewrite history. Part of me died that day. My loved ones died. If you truly love your God then be honest. Not hijackers? Really? What were they?

Nabeel Qureshi said...

AYK,

He believes the Jews did it.

Are You Kidding? said...

NQ,

Are you serious? I mean, I know you are or you would not say that.

I guess the women and children dancing in the streets and throwing candy were celebrating... a Jewish attack?

Is bin Laden just trying to pretend he did this, or is he actually Jewish?

Osama Abdallah said...

Are you kidding,

Please visit the links I gave you, especially the first one, and learn some real history about 9/11.


I already discussed this in great details, also, at this thread:

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=6590312557191237519&postID=6776940546748665776

It is too tiring to repeat. In a nutshell, the Jews were behind 9/11 from A to Z. The so-called "hijackers" were no more than mere passengers. That is why no knives and box cutters were detected by the airport security.

Trust me dude, the USA's airport security is VERY GOOD! No mere 19 bediouns can penetrate so ridiculously like this. And even if they aimed, they wouldn't aim for 4 airplanes, because if one is caught, then all flights would be stopped and the rest of the 3 would fail.

This Jewish scheme is getting exposed slowly and surely. 9/11 is among the biggest lies history ever known indeed!

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

then all flights would be stopped

IS READ AS:

then all flights would've been CANCELLED....

Sorry.

Osama Abdallah said...

The so-called 19 hijackers could not have even pulled this fake stunt in a 3rd world country's airport security!

Osama Abdallah said...

And it would've been FAAARRRRRRR easier to hijack 4 international airplanes as they descend to the USA and then POUND ALL OF THEM IN the US!

This is another proof that the so-called hijackers could not even have pulled this stunt in their countries, let alone pulling it in the GREATEST COUNTRY's airport security! A country that mastered security during the cold war 10000000 times better than any 3rd world country.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

WHY WOULD AL-QAEDA take the chance and hijack American airplanes when they could've hijaced double the number of international ones from Islamic countries, if they indeed were THAT SOPHISTICATED????

It's clear PEOPLE!! 9/11 is a big fat Jewish lie! Al-Qaeda is a myth and bin Laden is a myth! It's all lies.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

And your passengers would've more likely accept the mission, then the American passengers would've!! LOL. :-) I am sure you could find volunteers to help you!

Are You Kidding? said...

OA

I cannot accept your false assertions. Do you not believe this would be widely dispersed all over the news media on every possible outlet? You certainly seem to have a terrific insight into matters that others do not have.

Do you believe bin Laden is falsely taking credit for this? Please answer this question.

Another question, do you hate all Jews? Are there any Jews that you love?

I can either believe you are foolishly misguided and horribly deceived, or a very bad propagator of lies. I welcome another option although I cannot logically find one. Do you have a third option?

NQ, how great is the grace of Christ to lead you out of such horrible darkness!

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Dear Osama,

You said:
Nabeel - You keep flashing "I don't want to debate you" in my face like I am begging you to debate me. Dude, me being nice to you and apologizing if I have offended you in the past doesn't mean that I am kissing your butt to debate me. You can get lost to Hell for all I care. You are no more than a whining and silly child.

I don't know if you're trying to upset me by telling me to go to Hell and calling me names, but I think it's pretty funny. Really, it makes me smile :-)

You have shown yourself to be very involved in apologetics and arguing for Islam. Although I'm sure that anyone who's been tracking your behavior on this website certainly crossed you off their list as a serious debater, you're not out of the running as a debater altogether.

If David or I are in the mood to have a funny debate, we'll be sure to call you. You know, the kind where the opponent
- doesn't know the difference between John the Baptist and John the Evangelist
- thinks adopting a child is immoral but allowing your wife to breastfeed a strange man is okay
- and tells a US born, US raised, US citizen who's currently in the US that he's not "in the West".
That's hilarious stuff, and we'll be sure to keep you in mind if we need a break from serious debating.

And it'll be great if you can keep doing things like sending me emails which say:
"I first want to apologize for any bad behavior I've done. With all honesty I regret it, and I hope that we can be friends with each others. Really, I like to be professional and respectful all the time. I hate it when I lose myself and get out of line. I hope that you accept my sincere apology.
and then call me a "whining and silly child" who "can get lost to hell" 4 days later. That's the kind of comedy I couldn't even come up with if I tried! Great stuff, Osama. Once again, I'm glad you're on this site! You certainly keep things entertaining and interesting :-)

Seriously, though. May God bless you with discernment and a deeper love for His truth. Regardless of the things you say against me and the name calling, I pray that God will transform your heart into one filled with love and patience. May he shower wisdom upon you and show you the joy that comes from knowing Him.

Sincerely,
-Nabeel

Osama Abdallah said...

Nabeel,

Islam does not allow men to breast feed from women. Allah Almighty clearly Said that breast feeding is to be done only during the first two years after birth.

As to my email, yeah, I did mention that I apologized before, but that doesn't mean that I am begging you to debate.

And as to David and you not wanting to debate, I suggest you speak for yourself only, because the debate had been confirmed already between me and David. Unless he changes his mind, I don't see your comment to be valid.

You speak arrogantly and you put forth the silliest arguments. And you say that I am not to be taken serious? Even David asked you to clarify your comment because even he couldn't make sense out of what you said. This is your partner Nabeel.

So, so much for your wisdom. You are too arrogant. You're also making me regret that I've spoken to you with humbleness. Do I not address readers as "Dear..."? I tried to be humble with you, but you seem to be not worth it.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Fernando said...

Doctor Nabeel said: «I'm glad you're on this site! You certainly keep things entertaining and interesting :-)»...

I couldn't say neither better nor more... I tottaly agree with you Doctor Nabeel...

That's wie I was bery happy to see you join us on our, now almoste humoungous, chain of prayers for mister Ousama...

Osama Abdallah said...

Dear Fernando,

With all honesty, I don't want you to pray for me :-). Thank you very much though. You are a very kind man.

Your prayers sir are invalid, and I sincerely ask Allah Almighty to enable you and every non-Muslim reading to see the Truth of Islam someday. Believe me Fernando, your prayer is invalid! It is illusional.

Have a good day,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Osama:

When David said this:
Nabeel, when you say, "DO YOU JUST ARGUE WITH EVERYONE FOR FUN?! This is just plain ridiculous!" are you using the normal English meanings, or Muslim meanings, or Indian meanings? I can't understand your words until you specify.

Do you think he was being serious or sarcastic?

Osama Abdallah said...

Nabeel,

Very funny. We don't see you commenting on the verses that David agreed with me on that showed the Jesus Christ never got crucified, do we?

The reader can visit: www.answering-christianity.com/isaiah_53.htm

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

What happened Nabeel? Did the cat eat your tongue?

Why don't you post Mr. Wood's quote here Nabeel and comment on it, since you're the smart man?

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

Come on Nabeel! We're all waiting!

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Semper Paratus said...

Fernando,

Your prayers are invalid and ineffectual as confirmed by OA.

Perhaps if you call people whining children and tell them to go the hell, then the Lord might hear you. If that doesn't work, you might try to throw Christ's condescending love, whereby He became a human being and endured such things as being pursued by a man like Herod, into the Father's face, for so OA has shown us by example.

If that doesn't work you might try doing all these despicable things in conjunction with calling God Allah and giving him praise.

In all seriousness, Osama reminds me of Mike Tyson's famous remark about Lennox Lewis: "I want to eat your children", followed by "All praise to Allah."

Osama Abdallah said...

Semper,

It goes to show how desperate you are to disprove Islam to bring Mike Tyson into this.

Heck I could bring you actual leaders of your churches such as pedophile priests and fraud pastors who got arrested and exposed in world-wide scandals. But what value would that bring into this discussion?

Christianity is false and confused Semper. You can't even prove that Christ got crucified, and that's what I am waiting on Nabeel to comment on. Even his partner agreed with me on this. Oh wait, I guess David was sarcastic in this one, was he Nabeel?

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Royal Son said...

Osama, are you at it again with the subject of the crucifixion?

I hope someone can start a blog post on "The Crucifixion - Does the substitution theory work?"

I'd love to post my 10 questions to Osama on that one to see where it goes.

Anyway, back to the program, it was evil and disgusting for this muslim wife to be beheaded. Interestingly, the bible speaks about the antichrist using beheading as his form of execution. Islam seems to be unique in this regard:

Revelation 20:4 - I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been BEHEADED because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Osama Abdallah said...

By the way, if crucifixion is false, then the entire modern-day religion of Christianity is finished!

So this is serious. No sarcasm and jokes.

The reader can visit: www.answering-christianity.com/isaiah_53.htm

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

Royal Son,

Can you please let Nabeel answer? Since he thinks he is very smart. Let us see how truly smart he is.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

David Wood said...

Osama said: "Even his partner agreed with me on this. Oh wait, I guess David was sarcastic in this one, was he Nabeel?"

Stevie Wonder could see that I was being sarcastic.

Semper Paratus said...

My remarks weren't calculated to disprove Islam, Osama. They were directed at you. Your example is no better than Tyson's, so I don't know why you are so down on the guy.

As for Islam, it is just as easy to debunk as your piety is.

Also, speaking of confusion, "Christianity" is not a person, so it could hardly be confused.

Osama Abdallah said...

David Wood,

Did you not say the following quote:

"Psalm 91:12--"they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone."

Yes, this is clearly a denial of Jesus' crucifixion 1000 years later. It's much clearer than all the passages which declare, quite clearly, that Jesus was in fact crucified.

Osama certainly isn't being extraordinarily biased in his interpretation here."


Was this a sarcastic comment from you?

So much for Stevie Wonder....

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

Semper,

Christianity is confused in its laws, because it can't even get them straight.

I didn't want to use the word "confusing" instead, because then the attack would be on me and my so-called "lack of comprehension". As you see in my previous post, even Mr. David Wood here had the integrity and honesty to say that crucifixion is not clear in the Bible, and that there is stronger evidence to even go against the crucifixion in the Bible.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

In Islam, we believe that Jesus was lifted up and never got crucified. I mentioned several biblical verses, not just the Psalm verses, and all of them perfectly agree with Islam.

Now David can come and say that he was sarcastic in this one too, but his NT verses are quite irrelevant because the OT prophecied that Christ won't get crucified.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

Oh yeah, not to mention also that the Isaiah 53 verses (the so-called strongest prophecy for crucifixion) said that the servant (Christ) will live to see his offpring (biological children)

Jesus never had a single child according to christianity, nor did he even get married!

Again, please visit: www.answering-christianity.com/isaiah_53.htm

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Are You Kidding? said...

Osama, anyone can tell David was using sarcasm. Were you not aware of that when he said this previous statement? Do you really have such a language comprehension deficit that you are unable to understand basic correspondence? If this is indeed the case, well, it would help to explain why so many of your statements are clearly wrong or mistaken (at best).

Psalm 91 has nothing to do with the Messiah not being crucified. I do imagine Jesus stubbed as a child. Would that not make this verse untrue by your interpretation? Is this really how you comprehend the meaning of a text of any sort when reading through any form of literature?

Osama Abdallah said...

"Are you kidding",

First of all, when one deals with 100s of posts, one can't assume what is sarcastic and what isn't.

Second of all, the interpretation that you gave invalid for the following reasons:

1- The Psalm verses were talking about killing.

2- Christians believe that Psalms give a great deal of Prophecies about Christ.

3- Christ obviously walked on earth and HIT HIS FEET ON STONES! THAT'S A GIVEN. But the verses I quoted were clearly talking about crucifixion.


Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Semper Paratus said...

If that is what you are trying to say in your confused state of mind, then rather than use words that are apt to cause others to share in your confusion, you might say that the Bible sets forth propositions that are contrary to or that they contradict one another.

As for Psalm 90, why assume that it speaks of the Messiah in His state of humiliation rather than His state of exaltation?

After all, the Psalm goes on to say: "Because He has loved Me, therefore I will deliver Him; I WILL SET HIM SECURELY ON HIGH, because He has known My name...With a long life I will satisfy Him and let Him see My salvation."

This agrees with Isaiah 53: "But the LORD was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief if He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand."

BTW, as for the pedophile priests you mentioned earlier, did any of them have Biblical sanction for what they did, and did any of those priests first get betrothed to their victims at six and wait till they grew to the ripe age of nine before they consumated the relationship?

Osama Abdallah said...

Semper,

I didn't know David's personality. I am the type of person who assumes good in people. And I am also not used to dealing with sarcastic clowns :-). So if he is one, then good for him. And David Wood, AT LEAST I DIDN'T SPEND 10 YEARS OF MY LIFE IN JAIL, OK? I guess he doesn't deserve, after all, being respected as I thought he should've. AND MORE IMPORTANTLY: This is not Christ-like of him.

Now you said:

"As for Psalm 90, why assume that it speaks of the Messiah in His state of humiliation rather than His state of exaltation?

After all, the Psalm goes on to say: "Because He has loved Me, therefore I will deliver Him; I WILL SET HIM SECURELY ON HIGH, because He has known My name...With a long life I will satisfy Him and let Him see My salvation."

This agrees with Isaiah 53: "But the LORD was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief if He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand."

MY ANSWER:

Your answer fits Islam's position far better than Christianity's. The Angels lifted Jesus Christ so that his foot wouldn't strike a stone. The text says this. To me, this clearly sounds like SAVING HIM FROM DEATH!

I've provided many other verses from the bible at: www.answering-christianity.com/isaiah_53.htm

Have a good day,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

David Wood,

I am calling off our debate. Get lost.

Osama Abdallah

Royal Son said...

Wow

David Wood said...

Osama said: "I am calling off our debate. Get lost."

Wow! Osama finally made a wise decision!

I guess even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Are You Kidding? said...

Osama,

There is a gentleman with a you tube account, "Mr. Islam Answers Back". I believe you would really enjoy this. He understands English almost as well as you, has very similar thought patterns, and has never met a debater he did not thoroughly conquer with his incredible wisdom. You should contact the gentleman and form a partnership. I believe the two of you together would be an unbeatable combination!

By the way, he hates Americans, he hates white people, he has trouble with grasping basic rules of grammar, and is not really very good at communicating. Besides that, he's a really good guy. Make sure you tell him that John the Baptist is John the apostle. That should be the ticket to get you in the door!

Royal Son said...

David: I'm sure you'll be breathing a sigh of relief now.

Semper Paratus said...

Osama,

I spent two and a half years of my life in prison. When I turned 18 and was still in High School I was convicted and sent to prison. That was over 15 years ago. I have seen a number of people who became Muslim there (while I became a Christian) go in and out of prison. I have never returned, never looked back, and can tell you that Muhammad couldn't have delivered me from my love of crime.

I now loathe my former way of life, part of which involved being an angry person and telling people to "go to hell" and the like. Since Muhammad hasn't been able to deliver you from hate and hasn't proved capable of giving you power over your tongue, you might try a straighter path, one that involves repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Semper Paratus said...

My remarks above were sincere, although provoked by your reference to Mr. Wood's "10 years in prison".

David Wood said...

OSAMA: "All of you can go to hell! That's how I talk to people! You're all fools! I hope you all drop dead! This is what Islam is all about! I love insults! It's the only way I know how to communicate! INSULTS! INSULTS! INSULTS!"

DAVID: (Sarcastically) "Wow, you have some good arguments, Osama."

OSAMA: "I can't take such saracasm! How dare anyone respond to me without the utmost respect! Don't you people realize who I am! I demand respect! RESPECT!!! And if you people won't show me the proper respect, I'll show you all! I'll call off my debate with David!"

DAVID: "Excellent. One person who shouldn't be debating has just agreed not to debate."

The Fat Man said...

"Another ones gone, another ones gone, Another one bytes the dust. Hey allahs going to get you too, another one bytes the dust"

Royal Son said...

Is it just me or have the muslims hit rock bottom today?

Nakdimon said...

Everyone knows that the book of Isaiah has 4 servant songs in it. They can be Identified in the following texts:

Isaiah 42:1-4
Isaiah 49:1-6
Isaiah 50:4-11
Isaiah 52:13-53:12

Look at the language of the prophet about this servant and see how oblivious this Osama is:

Isaiah 50: 6. I GAVE MY BACK TO THE SMITERS and MY CHEEKS TO THEM THAT PLUCKED OFF THE HAIR; I did not hide my face from embarrassments and spitting.

Isaiah 52: 14. As many wondered about you, "HOW MARRED HIS APPEARANCE is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"


Isaiah 53:5. But he was BRUISED because of our transgressions, CRUSHED because of our iniquities; the CHASTISEMENT of our welfare was upon him, and with HIS WOUND we were healed.

Isaiah 53: 7. He was oppressed, and HE WAS AFFLICTED, yet he would not open his mouth; like a LAMB TO THE SLAUGHTER he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.

Isaiah 53: 8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For HE WAS CUT OFF FROM THE LAND OF THE LIVING; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.

Isaiah 53: 9. And he made HIS GRAVE to the wicked, and to the wealthy with HIS DEATHS, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

Isaiah 53: 10. And YHWH was pleased TO CRUSH HIM, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself a guilt-offering, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.

Isaiah 53: 12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul TO DEATH, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

Yet, according to Osama, this picture fits the Islamic theology and NOT the Messianic Theology and that no harm whatsoever was done to the Messiah. I say that you guys are simply wasting your time with such a person. He simply refuses to listen to anything you say, because Islam wont let him.

Fernando said...

Ousama said: «I am calling off our debate. Get lost.»...

no, don't do that Ousama... really: don't do that...

about mie (our) prayers for you being invalid, I reallie am sure you're wrong... my loving prayers are not imposed on me: they're free... a kiss given to someone's mother in order to escape her punishement reveals:

1) the mother is not a mother: she's a wicket person...;

2) the kiss was not a kiss, but an efford to avoid an evil action from an evil person...

do you see the analogies with muslim's prayer? so... Ousama: it's muslims own expression of piety who shows:

1') allah is not God... it's just an ilusion crated by the falsification, made up by Uthman, of the true qur'an that Muhammad dictatted...;

2') your prayers are not prayers... they're as false as any falsitie can be...

eben if you don't want mie (our) prayers, they'ra guaranteed to you... a good mother does not give food to her loving son onlie when he wantes, but also when he is deeply needing of it... my heart is whith you Ousama...

being so, and if the email Doctor Nabeel presented is true, and you wante to be taken seriously, hera are some formal advices:

a) dont use rude language...;

b) speek onlie about what you know...;

c) dont' continueslie redirect us to your site...;

d) if you want to make a point (eben when you habe published in your site) present it here;

e) dont put "bold" tags everywhere: they hurt our eyes and make it look like you're always shouting to us;

f) don't be childish and post things like "islam will win"... it makes look like you have lost all your arguments and decided to adopte muslim's last resource: auto-martirdom... in this case, an intelectual one...

so... Ousama... my (our) prayers are promised... eben iff you were right (and I know you're not...) they would do you no harm... accept, please, our most affectuos love to youu!!!

Royal Son said...

Nabeel: Powerful verses there brother. I truly amazes me how incredibly selective these Muslims can be. We are not ashamed of the bible. We love to talk about it all day because we know that it has a clear and consistent testimony of the truth concerning Jesus Christ.

Brother, would you mind starting a new thread "The Crucifixion - Does the Substitution theory work?"

I really want to pin Osama on a few points here.

Osama Abdallah said...
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Osama Abdallah said...
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