Friday, February 13, 2009

Articles on the Geert Wilders Catastrophe

In an effort to show that Islam is not a religion of violence, some Muslims are calling for the death of Geert Wilders.

Yet, as we've seen in comments on this blog, some Muslims hold that Wilders should be allowed to come to the UK and debate the issues. Here are some articles on the UK catastrophe.

Dutch anti-Islam politician turned away from Britain
LONDON (Reuters) - Right-wing Dutch legislator Geert Wilders, who is being prosecuted at home for anti-Islam remarks, said he was barred from entering Britain on Thursday after he landed in defiance of a government ban. Read More.

The Arrest of Geert Wilders
Multiculti England will tolerate any intolerance, except the guy who points out the intolerance. We can't tolerate that. Read More.

An Open Letter to the Government of the UK
With this edict, the government of the UK has broken faith with its own glorious tradition of enshrining freedom of speech, and embarked on an authoritarian course of setting the boundaries of political debate. With this action, the government of the UK has also broken faith with its neighbors in the European Union by taking the unprecedented measure of barring entry to a democratically elected representative, and, in Mr. Wilders’ case, party leader from another EU member state. In so doing, the government of the UK has additionally given lie to the organizing EU principle of “open borders” among member states, demonstrating a capricious will to close its borders against ideas of which it disapproves. Read More.

Intimidating critics of Islam
We lost more than a million jobs in the past few months, the headlines remind us. So last month's story about a Dutch court's ruling that Geert Wilders was "inciting hatred and discrimination" - and that "it is in the public interest to prosecute" him - understandably didn't make the American news. Read More.


Bfoali said...

All I can say, is it sucks to be him.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

I know that many of us are extremely busy at the moment, but would it not be an idea to open an Answering-Muslim pal-talk room once a week or so (for a few hours), when we all (the Christian brothers and sisters here) are able to participate?

Unfortunately, there is hardly any proper Christian room on the social issues, and it would bring us Christian apologists participating on this blog much closer together.

Royal Son said...

I participate in the room: "Why I am not a muslim" in the social issues->human rights section. We have had some good discussions there with muslims. One muslim recently left Christ. Another, today actually left Islam but is now in a state of confusion. Anyhow, I hope to see some of you there.

Royal Son said...

sorry i meant to say one muslim came to Christ

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Actually I have been on 'Why I am not a Muslim' a few times, but the reason why I said a proper room is that once I was criticised from preaching Christianity on it, as the room (I was told) focused only on criticising Islam, I was told that the room was not a Christian room, even though Christians participated (in fact it was as much a Jewish and atheist room, I was told). Another time I was actually thrown out for saying that the West needs to get back to its true family values instead of just criticising Islam, if we are to stand a chance against islam. That time, the one moderating the room was a not a believer in religion if recall it correctly.

So I am not saying that the room is useless, I am not against the room, and I encourage you to go on and expose islam for what it is, it is just that my personal experience with the rooms says to me that the room is not all the time presenting the Christian faith, and I believe we need a regular Christian room, run by solid Christian apologists in the debate with islam.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

But of course Royal, correct me if I am wrong about the room, those were only my own personal experiences, and there may be reasons why the room operated in that particular way when I visited it.

Nakdimon said...

MAN Hogan, that is a good idea.

With David and Nabeels permission I will start a room called "Answering Muslims" and refer to this blog.

But I'm having problems with my computer right now. I hope to get it back after the weekend.

What do you say guys!

Royal Son said...

Hogan, I fully understand where you are coming from. In fact I and a few other Christians talked to the Owner of the room and admins about this very issue.

As a result, the room is much more flexible these days. In fact, I remember speaking to a muslim for 2 hours in that room, back and forth dialogue. It was very productive.

Things have changed there. But if the new room is created, I will be sure to pay a visit ! :)

Might I also recommend owning "Answering-Islam" in case some muslims attempted to create such a room first.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

good idea, bro Nakdimon,

my computer skills are out the window, but I think it would be a good idea to work as a team, and all of us getting on there at the same time, decide a topic for the particular time.

However, yeah I do believe that such a room could be open the entire time, but it seems that Christian apologists on social issues is often lacking.

Anyway, lets have some brain storming, and if Wood and Nabeels give their approval and Malik and others are interested to get involved, we should probably go for it.

However, I guess I may speak for several of us, that temporary studies and work is already draining many of us, so I suggest that we kick if off slowly.

Nakdimon said...

yeah Hogan, a topic from this blog or something

we should do that.

El-Cid said...

Royal Son,

I was wondering if you were THAT Royalson :-D.

I was around that room almost every other day for about a month or so. Good to hear from you again.


I think that is a really great idea! I would absolutely drop by to have a listen to a room like that.

Nakdimon said...

yeah, good idea, because there is a room in there that run by Muslims called "dialogue between muslims and christians" but that room is a total JOKE!

Those admins dot you constantly and call you a liar when you spit facts. Yet they constantly make things up and claim to speak the truth. When you ask for proof they cant provide. I get dotted (for those that dont know, dotting is you getting silenced audibly and in text by the admins of the room) everytime I say something. It usually takes just 5 minutes for me to get dotted. I was there yesterday for 3 hrs and I was dotted for 2 hrs and 55 mins!

We need our own room where we can speak without someone taking our voice away.


El-Cid said...


"Christian Muslim Dialogue" is a massive joke on PalTalk. It needs to be renamed "Muslim Monologue".

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Yeah I have been on that same islamic room a couple of times, and I have been kicked out.

They took it offencive when they could not defend themselves against the fact that the authors (those who fabricated the sources) of the Qur'an testified to the reliability of the Injeel in Muhammad's time; they had absolutely nothing to say.

Then some fellow came up with the most ridicolous explanation, that the Qur'anic criticism of the Jews includes its rejection of the Injeel, since the early Christians were Jews, and hence being Jew and being Christian is the same; they simply denied the fact that the Qur'an reveals Allah making three covenants, one with the Jews, one with the Christians and one through Muhammad and his followers; hence these are not the same.

To cut a long story short I was simply told that I could accept what he said or leave; when I reiterated my questions which he had not answered, I was banned. Then of course they highlighted that I was refuted---but was I?

We need a room that acts fair and effectively, highly academically and respectfully.

Unfortunately you find a number of muslim rooms and anti-islamic rooms on paltalk that do not apply such virtue.

Dk said...

False Idealism my friends. There is no such thing as a fairly ran and decent room on Pal. ESPECIALLY Social Issues, argh. Everything from Pete, CP, Why i'm not Muslim and the countless screwed up Muslim rooms.

AI use to teach on Paltalk and even occasionaly debate, but he also is extremely strict, and would not last in a dialogue room, AI does a great job, but has a very different style from Wood, Nabeel and Hogan. AI understands how Muslims and Islam work and responds accordingly.

Royal Son said...

I feel your pain brothers :)

First time I went in there I heard an admin try to say that none of Jesus' disciples were at the crucifixion to witness it.

I simply typed in text : "I'm glad Mohammed was there to see what really happened" which earned me my first honorary dot. I didn't even get to present my evidence to show that Jesus' followers WERE at the scene.

Then recently I got dotted for responding to an admin on the mic who was saying that Paul corrupted Jesus' teachings of the law. I gave them Matthew 22:37-40 and Romans 13:9.

Then later when I was undotted I got on the mic and asked them why do they believe the injeel and torah have been corrupted in light of Surah 10:64 and surah 6:34. I then mentioned that as a person of the gospel, I judge the Quran to be false.

That did it for them !

On another note, some admins actually warned people in their room that if they visited our room (why i am not a muslim), they would get dotted and/or bounced. They were furious that muslims were starting to question Islam.
They threatened to bring 40 people over to our room to refute all our "lies" about Islam and Mohammad.

When I asked them on the mic "What time would you like to have this debate?" They ended up calling it off.

Something tells me the monologue admins there are getting rather frustrated.


Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

I like the idea Royal, have these 40 muslims come over and listen quietly and openly for a few hours while they are reddotted. I wonder how many of them would remain muslims?

One question brothers, have you guys ever had your computer targeted when debating online?

Osama Abdallah said...

Hmmmm... How do we know that these men in the picture WEREN'T CHRISTIANS IN DISGUISE?

Aren't christians notorious in lying? See their governments and their bloody history. It's all enslaving, terrorism, 10s of millions of people die in their world wars, colonizations, lying, mass destruction of nations, monopolizing, and ON AND ON AND ON...

So why can't these men in the pictures be false christians in disguise?

Osama Abdallah

Royal Son said...

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

"I like the idea Royal, have these 40 muslims come over and listen quietly and openly for a few hours while they are reddotted. I wonder how many of them would remain muslims?"

It would be great, and I'm actually quite happy that our room got some free advertising lol. That's the difference between the two sides. One side actually wants to engage the other with the truth. The other side of course has Surah 5:101-102.

"One question brothers, have you guys ever had your computer targeted when debating online?"

Good question, well I don't think we can ever be 100% certain that we have not because some viruses don't get picked up and/or lie dormant for a while.

I have picked up a number of viruses lately, but I'm not sure if that's from Paltalk, or visiting Osama's website or something else.

Osama Abdallah said...

Royal Son,

When visiting Osama's site, you mind-blowing articles and points like the following:

Your bible PRAISES pornography. I've listed the detailed verses at:

My favorite verse is this: Song of Songs 8:1-3 "IF ONLY YOU WERE TO ME LIKE MY BROTHER, who was nursed at my mother's breasts! Then, if I found you outside, I would kiss you, and no one would despise me. I would lead you and bring you to my mother's house-- she who has taught me. I would give you spiced wine to drink [i.e., her vagina's semen!], the nectar of my pomegranates. His left arm is under my head and his right arm embraces me."

YOUR BIBLE NOT ONLY PROMOTES PORNOGRAPHY, but it also promotes INCESTUOUS (brothers and sisters falling in love with each others) RELATIONSHIPS.


Osama Abdallah

El-Cid said...


Interesting that you point out Song of Solomon. I have had over 5 Muslims point to ABSOLUTE PROOF of Muhammad being mentioned in the Bible in....guess where....Song of Solomon :-).

Ahmed Deedat has used a verse from Song of Solomon as a proof text of prophecy of Muhammad. Yusuf Ali promotes this same proof text. My translation of the Quran (with parallel Arabic) printed in Saudi Arabia also lists this same proof text.

What on earth is a prophecy foretelling your "prophet" doing in a book of "pornography"??

So Osama, please tell us do you confirm that Song of Solomon 5:16 is a prophecy about Muhammad....or are Deedat, Yusuf Ali, et al just completely wrong?

Since you have made such a firm claim about Song of Solomon please state your position of 5:16- Do you confirm this is about Muhammad or repudiate it?

David Wood said...

Osama said: "Hmmmm... How do we know that these men in the picture WEREN'T CHRISTIANS IN DISGUISE?"

Well, if we're going to appeal to these sorts of explanations, why shouldn't we conclude that you're a Christian in disguise, and that you're pretending to be a Muslim apologist in order to make Islam look bad?

(BTW, there were a ton of these pictures. They're from a major anti-Geert event.)

Osama Abdallah said...

Mr. Wood,

The picture is probably correct. But please always keep in mind that some anti-Islamic could sneak in in the crowd, especially in the West, and do these things. I strongly believe in this for the following reasons:

1- The Muslims in the West are very careful to not cause problems. 9/11 was a devistating blow for them, even though 9/11 was no more than a remote-controlled conspiracy done by the Jews and Neil Bush and Dick Cheney. Yes, the airplanes were remote-controlled to smash into the World Trade Center Buildings. And the pentagon, as you know, wasn't hit by any civilian airplane.

2- It's easy for some one who looks "Muslim" and who isn't a Muslim (like a hindu, christian, etc...) to come in and look like a terrorist.

I hope this helps.

Osama Abdallah

Royal Son said...

Can you imagine what it would be like if we went to an Islamic country and demanded they ban any anti-Christian/anti-bible books?

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Osama wrote:

My favorite verse is this: Song of Songs 8:1-3 "IF ONLY YOU WERE TO ME LIKE MY BROTHER, who was nursed at my mother's breasts! Then, if I found you outside, I would kiss you, and no one would despise me. I would lead you and bring you to my mother's house-- she who has taught me. I would give you spiced wine to drink [i.e., her vagina's semen!], the nectar of my pomegranates. His left arm is under my head and his right arm embraces me."

Elijah replies:

Yeah I have to admit that I find Osama's mindset sickening here. He seems to see sex, rape and child abuse everywhere, and that is a worrying observation.

The Bible says:

To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe nothing is pure (Titus 1: 15).

As to the Song of song, and I doubt that Osama has even exegetically studied the book (his artictles tend to provide the flavour of someone who lacks any indepth study, someone who quickly passes over a text and grabs from it whatever he thinks benefits his cause), it reveals the relationship between one or two couples, a king (probably Solomon) and a possibly a shepherd boy and the girl he loves. Some scholars would say that this is one and the same couple, which possible indeed, keep in mind it is a very difficult book to get your head around.

In both cases (if these are two couples) the relationships are interupted by outsiders, and the book reveals their struggle to enjoy each other and sort of cut themselves free from the crowd.

In the case of Solomon and the dark girl, she is undermined by the community and not taught of worthy to be married to Solomon.

The particular passage does therefore not reveal a sexual relationship between a brother and a sister as Osama has eisegised into the text.

The passage clearly says: 'if only you were to me like a brother', it does not say: 'if only you were my brother'. The girl uses only the analogy since a brother natural relationship to his sister is not questioned or hindered, as was their relationship as this point.

Secondly, why on earth does Osama interpret 'spiced wine' to female sperm, does he assume that spiced wine did not exist at the time or what?

Two sub-points need to be raised here with the second point :

1) as has been pointed out already, females do not have sperm (which only questions Osamas self proclaimed scientific crediblity),

2)where does the particular sub-context reveal that the reference here is to sperm? Osama even allows himself to edit the Bible with a text between brackets to factualize his claim: [i.e., her vagina's semen!]; yet nothing in the text presupposes so. And even though it did, it does not provide reference to a brother or sister but a girl who wished that her lover's relationship was like that of a brother so their relationship would escape harm caused by the opinion and acts of outsiders.

Thirdly, Osama needs to grasp as well, that even though the text was referring to a brother-sister relationship (which it is not) its quotation would not equal a law or command from God, but simply the saying of a girl recorded among the Old Testament books and accepted by the Jewish teachers, which the Qur'an commands muslims in Muhammad's time to consider trustworthy.

Furthermore the Qur'an itself quotes the sayings of others rather than its supposed revealer, such as the words of satan who refused to bow to Adam, and the Jews who believed they had killed Jesus, even though Allah himself secretly had raptured Jesus to heaven and himself deceived the Jews, the Romas, the apostles and the world that Jesus had been crucified.

Honestly, I did not find this argument or any of his arguments worthy to respond to (its simply so sickening and speculative anyway), but I thought for the fun sake and because he continually keeps bringing this passage up, why not.

Royal Son said...

I think Osama might need to pray to God to cleanse his filthy mind and stop him interpreting things according to his lust.

Osama Abdallah said...


Where did I say that this verse IS ABOUT A BROTHER AND HIS SISTER?

I said that this verse allows sexual fantacies between brothers and sisters!

Read my post once again.

Osama Abdallah

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Osama wrote:


Where did I say that this verse IS ABOUT A BROTHER AND HIS SISTER?

I said that this verse allows sexual fantacies between brothers and sisters!

Hogan replies:

What is the difference?

Whether it picturizes the sexual relationship between brother and sister or merely the fantacy you still assume that the passage is a sexual act between brother and sister.

This is what you (Osama Abdallah) wrote in a previous verse:

YOUR BIBLE NOT ONLY PROMOTES PORNOGRAPHY, but it also promotes INCESTUOUS (brothers and sisters falling in love with each others) RELATIONSHIPS.

Here you actually made a different statement, here you actually assume that the Bible promotes sex between brother and sister. Which is no where evident as to the context. Hence you seem to have misunderstood your own post.

Osama wrote:

Read my post once again.

Elijah replies:


Don't have to, I have read it and scrutinized it already.

You seem to act as if you are a sophisticated writer.

Let me educate you, you are not!

first you tell me that I have misunderstood some detail, which I did not misunderstand at all; your own post actually reveals that you misunderstood your own post yourself.

Secondly, you ask me to read your post again, as if there is anything to read, I mean anything of significance.

You have been debunked and refuted, as usual.

The text does not reveal brother and sister having sex.

The text does not even indicate that brother or sister or anyonoe else even fantazises sex between brother or sister.

Read the context and see that the girl being referred to wished that her lover was 'like' her brother, not her brother in terms of their being together would not become a matter of public interference.

Furthermore, prove to me that spicy vine necessarily refers to female sperm, whatever that is.

Secondly, prove to me that the passage actually is a revelation from God that legalizes sex between brother and sister.

Thirdly, explain to me why this verse is your favorite verse in the Bible, if you assumption is right?

El-Cid said...


Hogan and others have completely and thoroughly handled your claims about Song of Solomon; however, I am still curious-

Do you believe there is a prophecy about Muhammad in Song of Solomon?

Osama Abdallah said...


No I do not. Please visit:

Have a good day,
Osama Abdallah

El-Cid said...


Thank you for clarifying your position.

Sorry though, I cannot visit your website again. The virus issues keep me from doing so.

One year ago, I visited and my anti-viral had to handle a problem. After your recent claims that you have resolved these issues I visited your site again, and my anti-viral had to block and remove a trojan.

I will not be visiting your site again, and I advise others to do the same.

It's irresponsible of you to invite people to your site now that you know it has these problems.