Wednesday, January 14, 2009

Western Muslims Clash with Western Police (to Protest Israel's Existence)

Muslims in the UK now know that the police can do nothing to stop them. (Note: This video contains several profanities uttered by Muslims.)

Has anyone noticed that when Muslims are upset about something, they will attack virtually any non-Muslims, whether those non-Muslims have done anything to offend Islam? Thus, when British Muslims get upset about Palestine, they attack British police (who have nothing to do with Palestine). When Muslims around the world get upset about cartoons, they attack Christians everywhere (despite the fact that Christians had nothing to do with the cartoons).

Notice that there were a couple of peaceful Muslims in the video, trying to calm their brothers and sisters down. Notice also that the crowd completely ignored these peaceful voices. This may be a preview of things to come. When Islam becomes powerful enough to fight the West, many Muslims will follow Muhammad's command to attack non-Muslims. There will, of course, be some peaceful Muslims who try to prevent Islam from attacking the West. This video shows who's going to win that argument.

On a different note, can anyone imagine what would happen if Muslims could channel this violent energy into something positive (e.g. helping the poor, bringing human rights to Muslim countries, etc.)? Sadly, Muslims only seem to get excited when someone offends them.

52 comments:

Fernando said...

I'm allways deeply sorrowed when I see these thingues happenning... In the past days they have been more and more frequente...

It's not the case if they have the wright to manifeste (they habe), nor if rhey habe the wright to sai that they wante an end to the war in Gaza (they habe), it's the way they do these manifestations, showing that they have not the minimum of respecte, of tolerance, of peacefull wishes, of dialogue capacities, of human and personal habilities...

Some muslims apologists say that in the middle ages, whille in Europe peolple lived in caves like barbarians (what is a lie... the troglodites being more comunn in muslim countries untill these days...) islam's civilization was floreshing (due to the assimilation of other cultures... but this they don't say...)... now it's the oposite: those still behaving as barbarians are some (not so few as some would like to say...) muslims all around the worlde...

child marrieges; suicide murderers; intolerance to other religions and cultures showned in the indisere of integration; stoning people for religious options; and so one...

My heart hakes with sorrow for this realitty... for seeing that there're human beings being astraid from humanity...

My prayer are with those who sufferr the consequences of these actitues, but also with those who suffer the consecuences of living in a faith that clearly handicapes humanity...

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

I will never criticise anti-islamic rooms on pal-talk again; those highly desparate rooms are obviously correct in their judgement.

This video only confirms that the demonstration was declaration of war against non-muslims in UK (like me); we are obviously the kuffars and the sweines, as the video openly revealed.

So much for Islam being a religion of peace.

I wonder if Christians or Jews could have demonstrated in the same way in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia?

Also considering that Christians in Sudan have suffered a hundreds times worse attrocities than the Palestinians without Christians in the West burning mosques or shouting slogans against Muslims, reveals the difference in the nature of these two religions (Christianity and Islam).

And Muslims don't tell me this is not Islam, otherwise bring the speaker from the video to a public arena a make him apologize in front of us kuffars.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Actually this is a issue that ought to be brought up in the media, it should be a considered a discrimination according to Law to call someone a kuffar.

Matthew said...

The two faces

Joel said...

"This may be a preview of things to come. When Islam becomes powerful enough to fight the West, many Muslims will follow Muhammad's command to attack non-Muslims."

Mr. Wood (or anyone), what do you propose be done about this threat? I hear a lot of complaining and warnings about "things to come" from Islamic Jihad in the West, particularly in Britain, but yet I hardly ever hear anyone offering any solutions as to how to prevent this situation from actually being realized. Is the Islamic take-over of Britain and the West inevitable? If not, what must we do, as a collective civilization, to combat this growing threat within our borders? I have an idea how this can be done, but I'd like others to give their opinions first.

Please, let's talk about preventative measures we can take, rather than simply reporting the news, complaining about it a little bit, and then forgetting about it until the next episode of Islamic Jihad breaks out.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard: "it should be a considered a discrimination according to Law to call someone a kuffar."

I disagree. Erecting Orwellian anti-hate speech laws is not the answer. For one, because where do you draw the line? If calling someone a kuffar is unacceptable, why not a Jihadist or even a sinner? Silencing Islam in this way does nothing to change the fact that its within our borders and is, through sheer numbers, taking over our Western culture and political institutions.

But thank you for at least offering some kind of solution to this problem, rather than sitting on the sidelines saying nothing about what preventable measures we can take like so many do.

Joel

David Wood said...

Joel said: "Mr. Wood (or anyone), what do you propose be done about this threat? I hear a lot of complaining and warnings about "things to come" from Islamic Jihad in the West, particularly in Britain, but yet I hardly ever hear anyone offering any solutions as to how to prevent this situation from actually being realized. Is the Islamic take-over of Britain and the West inevitable?"

I suspect it's inevitable. However, if there is anything that can be done, I think it will have to involve (1) showing people that the situation is much worse than they think, and (2) refuting false Muslim beliefs and showing Muslims that they're fighting for something that's false (which is what we're trying to do here).

Sunil said...

Joel,

>> what do you propose be done about this threat? I hear a lot of complaining and warnings about "things to come" from Islamic Jihad in the West, particularly in Britain

A few points:
1) As followers of Jesus, we do not have the option of using force, military, discrimination etc (on a religious issue).
2) I think debates like how David Wood and James White are engaging are extremely important. It is a culture that should expand in to the Islamic world. The Muslims who support such freedom of exchange of ideas should help create that culture in Islamic countries
3) Many Muslims living in democratic societies support democracy, equality before law, universal human rights, freedom of speech/religion etc. They should be encouraged to talk about it openly and they should openly denounce the lack of these values in Islamic societies and give an all out call for adoption/implementation of these values in Islamic nations (if they cannot do it, it exposes the claim that they indeed support these values).
4) Promote universal broad based education all over world including Islamic nations (in wide ranging subjects like mathematics, physics, chemisty, Medicine, languages, arts, social sciences, engineering etc) to increase the broad-based thinking and see the value of objective and genuine scholarship on all subjects including theology.

5) MOST IMPORTANTLY, I think, the win comes not from debates and any other strategies etc. Ultimately, God does not want us to win by arguments and strategies alone, but by living as true disciples of Jesus. In the Old Testament, God has taught that the people of God will win if they follow God and loose if they abandon God. If it was Assyrians and Babylonians then, it can be by armed Jihad and Islamists now. So, the most important thing is to become true followers/disciples of Jesus. Nothing can beat that (spiritually). No argument will stand in front of God’s grace of lives lived in the foot steps of Jesus. Today, if anyone is even willing to listen to arguments etc of Muslims, that is because as a whole we are not showing the kind of lives that a follower of Jesus who has received Gods Grace would show.

Ibn said...

Wood:...refuting false Muslim beliefs and showing Muslims that they're fighting for something that's false (which is what we're trying to do here).

Rather unsuccessfully, if I may add.

Sami Zaatari said...

Hogan i find your comments rather strange, for starters you will never negatively critique anti-Islamic rooms on paltalk, so when they go on mic and started singing about killing Palestinians, when they go on mic calling all Muslims scum etc etc and worst and worst, you wont speak against that?

number 2 you then go on to make the general statement of so much for Islam being a religion of peace, and what makes you say this? a few Muslims who got abit violent and shouting anti-western slogans??????

so let me get this straight hogan, Islam is not a religion of peace now because of a few violent protesters, and the west is under a massive threat etc etc, yet as we speak 1000 palestinians have been killed, most of them women and children, yet no no thats not a big deal, when a few Muslims shout and get abit violent (without even killing ANYONE, nor seriously harming anyone) thats the major threat and problem, sheesh, from where do you get your standards from?

hogan you then make another strange statement, demanding we bring this Muslim to apologize, lol, you know this is not possible, we dont even know who he is, we dont even see his face, so that is not possible and you know thats not possible, yet even if we did know him, your demand is outright silly.

hogan how about you bring me each Christian to apologize for supporting Israels massacre of Gaza, how about that? you want us to bring you a Muslim who shouted and so on, then i want you to bring me the Christians who are actively supporting the murder of my fellow Palestinians in Palestine.

see hogan here is the difference between me and you, you are protesting against a few men who shouted a few insults, and barely harmed anyone.

i on the other hand am protesting the active murder and oppression of 1.5 million Palestinians, and that says it all. you get all worked up by a demonstration, but you dont get worked up on the daily killing of innocent Palestinians, again, where do you get your standards from? i would really like to know.

Sami Zaatari said...

Also on another point there were several protests in england, 99.9% of them were peaceful, so it is completely unfair to now generalize due to this incident.

so David when you say there were 'some' peaceful Muslims im afraid this is not the reality, the reality was that there were 'some' violent protesters, not the other way round, the violent people were in the 'some' category and the peaceful ones were in the majority.

also on a another point, David, Muslims didnt start attacking Christians everywhere after the danish cartoons, this really is a generalized false comment on all levels. you and i know there were very few attacks on Christians.

and on a last comment, David you say that it would be much better if angry Muslims channeled their frustration into positive activities, well David, they have, you just keep highlighting the minority violent ones to then go on and generalize against all the other Muslims, the fact is is that Muslims are channeling their frustration into positivity, getting involved with political affairs, getting more religously active to spread the truth etc etc, and this is a fact my friend.

all of this though is getting us of the real issue as well, facts are facts, as we speak Israel has killed over 1000 people, most of them civillians, hundreds of them kids.

Sunil said...

Sami Zaatari,

>> make the general statement of so much for Islam being a religion of peace, and what makes you say this? a few Muslims who got abit violent and shouting anti-western slogans??????
>> Islam is not a religion of peace now because of a few violent protesters

A few violent protesters will be there in all religions and all groups. That is not the issue. The broader issue (which is also reflected in the attitude in these violent protests, suicide attacks, terrorist attacks, indiscriminate firings on civilians etc) is the ideology of armed Jihad, forming religion based armies and conquering the people to put in place Shariah etc. The ideology has strong foundation in Islamic theology/history and in the teachings/actions of Muhammad and his Companions. It is only the lack of strength and lack of enough weapons that is preventing it as of today. That is the concern/danger. Everything in Islamic theology/history support such a call for armed Jihad and takeover and there is nothing that can stop it (theologically). If the Muslims in India are strong enough and if there is a call to form a private “muslim army” for armed Jihad to take over etc, there is nothing in Islamic theology that can repudiate/denounce such an action.

>> yet as we speak 1000 palestinians have been killed, most of them women and children, yet no no thats not a big deal

The deaths are very sad, but it is not the same as the threat described above. If Israel also has the concept of armed Jihad to impose their religious law all over the world and use their military strength to do that, then it will be as great a threat/danger as Islamist ideology. Secondly, if Pakistan for example keeps sending terrorists and keeps killing innocent Indian citizens, even if the number of Indians killed is a few dozens, if there is no way to stop them, India may choose to attack/strike the terrorist groups/camps. Such an action will unfortunately kill civilians also (especially if the terrorist groups are located in densely populated civilian areas).

>> strange statement, demanding we bring this Muslim to apologize, lol, you know this is not possible, we dont even know who he is, we dont even see his face

Other Muslim leaders can apologize for the unruly/uncivilized behavior and denounce it (or disown them as anti-islamic). So that at least the people are shamed and not repeat such behavior.

>> you are protesting against a few men who shouted a few insults, and barely harmed anyone

The denouncing is for the violence in protests, suicide bombings, terrorist attacks killing innocent citizens indiscriminately and the strong theological/historical support for forming muslim armies for armed Jihad etc

El-Cid said...

It doesn't take a genius to see what the protest organizers are trying to do in London:

They are attempting to provoke physical clash with the police, and capture the clash on camera...a little editing of the tape, and it makes for great propaganda showing the "brutal west" is "victimizing" the poor "peaceful Muslims".

The issue in Gaza is simply a pretext to promote open clash, and for Muslims to try to visually manifest their numbers for intimidation. It will only get worse in Londonistan as their numbers grow.

On a side note: Muslim protestors have the absolute WORST protest slogans I have EVER heard! They need to hire an old hippie to teach to them how to protest chant :-)....

A little, "Hey hey, ho ho...Isra-el has got to go" would really spruce up their little march.

Sunil said...

>> Israel has killed over 1000 people, most of them civillians, hundreds of them kids.

The complete statement would be that the Hamas is deliberately targeting and attacking Israeli civilians. To stop that Israel chose to attack Hamas targets (whether there are better ways to stop the attacks from Hamas is debatable) and since the Hamas people/targets/locations are in the midst of densely populated areas, there are deaths of civilians in Gaza (which is very unfortunate indeed). It is not a case of Israel sending suicide bombers or terrorists to kill indiscriminately on civilians (like it happened in Mumbai recently and many other places by Islamist terrorists all the time)
Note: I am talking about the limited context of current Gaza conflict and not the overall issue of Israel-Palestine issue.

Sami Zaatari said...

Sunil:

'The deaths are very sad, but it is not the same as the threat described above'

Sorry, i do not agree with this at all, 1000 people are dead, most of them children, and you just say oh well thats just sad and not like above. its not just very sad, its a massive crime, terrorism, thats what it is. Secondly, what Israel is doing is part of an ideology, you are ignorant if you think the zionists have no violent ideoalogy! their entire basis is based on a racist supermist ideology! which is taking the land of Palestine, kicking all the Arab inhabitants out, and also establish a greater Israel, this is all part of their violent ideology, and my grandparents and familly who were living in Palestine were a victim to this, so yes, the zionists do have a violent ideology which seeks to conquer and command the mid-east region.

number two it is also part of a wider ideology involving some Christian war-hawks in the USA, the Christian neo-cons who support Israel due to their neocon ideology which is for a global american neocon influence, as well as their Christian ideology of supporting Israel due it supposedly being biblicaly justified.

Sami Zaatari said...

Sunil, you are a Christian, you are supposed to value life, i dont understand how you can simply say whats happening in Palestine is just sad and supposedly different therefore it doesnt count as much, you see, this is the difference between me and you, whenever there is a crime or genocide-terrorism the fact is is that it is what it is, i dont say oh well this is different so therefore its just sad and not as bad, and as long as you dont stop thinking the way you do there will never be peace, your either for justice and peace for all or your for nothing.

Joel said...

Mr. Wood: "I suspect it's inevitable."

So we should just give up then.

Wood continues: "However, if there is anything that can be done, I think it will have to involve (1) showing people that the situation is much worse than they think, and (2) refuting false Muslim beliefs and showing Muslims that they're fighting for something that's false (which is what we're trying to do here)."

All this will do is, at most, delay the so-called inevitable. I'm not saying we shouldn't engage in apologetics with Muslims or work to convert them to Christian, or at the very least convince them of the lie that is Islam. But realistically, this strategy is like trying to stop a tsunami with a surfboard.

It would be foolish of me to kindly invite a Muslim to stay at my home for a week and then once he's inside immediately demand that he cease from acting like a Muslim. Or, for another example, it would be like trying to win the war against Nazi Germany by importing their armies to American shores and then trying to "reason" with them once they're here. That would be extremely dangerous and foolish.

I don't fault Muslims for being Muslims. I just want them to be Muslims somewhere else where they aren't a threat to kill me and/or subjugate me to dhimmi status if I don't convince them of their erroneous ways in time.

Sunil: "1) As followers of Jesus, we do not have the option of using force, military, discrimination etc (on a religious issue)."

Why not? Christianity isn't a suicide religion. If we follow your definition of Christianity, which I think is little more than liberalism with a Christian face on it, then the West is doomed. Indeed, it's this kind of non-discrimination thinking that has gotten us in this mess in the first place. Muslims wouldn't be on our shores causing trouble if we didn't import them here through our insane immigration policies in the first place. But because liberalism's highest rule is that one must not discriminate, Islam has been allowed to emigrate here en mass, despite the danger it clearly poses to our freedom and safety.

Besides, you know as well as I do that Islam is just as much a political ideology as it is a religion. We should treat it as such. To say we can't discriminate politically against Islam is akin to saying that we can't discriminate against Communism or Fascism.

Sunil: "2) I think debates like how David Wood and James White are engaging are extremely important. It is a culture that should expand in to the Islamic world. The Muslims who support such freedom of exchange of ideas should help create that culture in Islamic countries."

It's not our job as Westerners or even Christians to reform Islam into a peaceful and tolerant image. For one thing, it'll never happen short of a complete re-editing of the Koran and Hadith. This is a in-house struggle, one which needs to be conducted in Muslims countries, not Western ones.

Sunil: "3) Many Muslims living in democratic societies support democracy, equality before law, universal human rights, freedom of speech/religion etc."

And there is a smaller yet outspoken and dominant fraction of Muslims who want nothing to do with our Western values; they want Western civilization crushed and sharia imposed. Even Mr. Wood himself thinks this group will ultimately win out. So while I recognize that a good many Muslims want nothing to do with the actual teachings of their own holy book, there remains a rather sizable portion of every Muslim populace who do. Can you tell the difference between the two?

Sunil: "They should be encouraged to talk about it openly and they should openly denounce the lack of these values in Islamic societies and give an all out call for adoption/implementation of these values in Islamic nations (if they cannot do it, it exposes the claim that they indeed support these values)."

I agree. I'm all for peaceful Muslims speaking out against the violence and hatred spewed forth by so many of their Muslim brothers. I'm all for their effort to reinvent Islam into a more peaceful version of itself. But there's no reason why they need to do it here, from our shores. Let them go back to their own countries and fight for Islamic tolerance there.

Sunil: "4) Promote universal broad based education all over world including Islamic nations (in wide ranging subjects like mathematics, physics, chemisty, Medicine, languages, arts, social sciences, engineering etc) to increase the broad-based thinking and see the value of objective and genuine scholarship on all subjects including theology."

Sorry, but I'm not interested in funding education to the entire world, as if all of our problems could be fixed if people were just better educated and less ignorant. This is a liberal pipe dream. For one thing, it actually goes against the teaching of the Bible which says that man is evil not because of his lack of education and cultural awareness, but because he's a sinner in need of Christ. Besides the point that it is not our responsibility as Westerners to educate the whole known world. We have enough problems here in America properly educated our own children, despite the billions we throw at the public school system annually.

I especially don't want to be funding Jihad indoctrination centers, also known as madrassas.

Sunil: "5) MOST IMPORTANTLY, I think, the win comes not from debates and any other strategies etc. Ultimately, God does not want us to win by arguments and strategies alone, but by living as true disciples of Jesus. In the Old Testament, God has taught that the people of God will win if they follow God and loose if they abandon God. If it was Assyrians and Babylonians then, it can be by armed Jihad and Islamists now. So, the most important thing is to become true followers/disciples of Jesus. Nothing can beat that (spiritually). No argument will stand in front of God’s grace of lives lived in the foot steps of Jesus. Today, if anyone is even willing to listen to arguments etc of Muslims, that is because as a whole we are not showing the kind of lives that a follower of Jesus who has received Gods Grace would show."

Look, I'm all for living a Christ-centered life. I'm all for evangelizing the lost including the Muslims. As Christians we should be the light of the world and the salt of the earth. But how are we (Western Christians) to carry on such an example when Sharia is imposed and it becomes illegal to evangelize for Christ? How are we (Western Christians) to be a light to the world for Christ if we're completely taken over by Muslim overlords? If you want Western finances and influence to continue to be a dominate asset in world evangelization, including to Muslim countries, then we can't let allow ourselves to be conquered by Islam.

So how can we prevent an Islamic take-over? Our only option, as far as I can tell, is to separate ourselves from Islam. Islam is only a threat to our freedom and survival because we permitted it entrance, en mass, into our lands. And once it was here, it became, and has continued to become, impossible to assimilate or control. You don't invite the enemy into your country and then try to change them once they're there, but that's exactly what we have foolishly tried to do. And, not surprisingly, we have failed.

So the bottom line is this:

- Islam is a mortal threat to our civilization.

- But we cannot destroy Islam.

- Nor can we democratize Islam.

- Nor can we assimilate Islam.

- Therefore the only way to make ourselves safe from Islam is to separate ourselves from Islam.

This means, first and foremost ending all immigration to our countries from Islamic nation. Secondly, it means deporting every non-citizen Muslim back to their country of origin. Thirdly, it means deporting every Muslim citizen who preaches Jihad or the inferiority of infidels, and/or advocates the establishment of sharia law in the West. Fourthly, it means recognizing Islam as a political ideology whose goal is the destruction and subjugation of the West. Fifthly, as far as America is concerned, it means the constitutional designation of Islam as a political enemy of the United States and its views made illegal. Then Mosques need to be shut down (especially the ones we know preach "radical" Islam), madrassas need to be closed, and all concessions to Muslims (publicly-funded footbaths, mandatory time off of work for prayer, etc.) need to be denounced and rescinded.

What I have outlined here is not immoral, for it is for the protection of our own culture, freedom of religion (which we couldn't have under Islamic society), and even our very lives. Nor is such a plan unfeasible once people begin to realize the threat Islam poses. Nonetheless, I'm sure I'll get lambasted for even suggesting something so "radical" and, I'm sure, "unChristian" by many of my fellow Westerners and Christians here. But understand that this is the only way to ensure that we do not get taken over by the Islamic enemy already in our midst.

Or we can continue to do nothing but gripe and moan about how evil Islam is and how inevitable it is that the West will be taken over by it, all while our prophecy gradually becomes self-fulfilled. It's our choice.

Joel

KeithTruth said...

These barbarians need to be taught a lesson. Namely they need to be deported to Saudi Arabia so they can see how good they have it in the west.

That one animal was saying
"Lets have a fu**in@ WAR!!!"

Fine then get out of here and assemble your army in the middle east. Then we can see what happens.

El-Cid said...

Sunil said: "To stop that Israel chose to attack Hamas targets (whether there are better ways to stop the attacks from Hamas is debatable) and since the Hamas people/targets/locations are in the midst of densely populated areas, there are deaths of civilians in Gaza (which is very unfortunate indeed)."

And lets not forget that Hamas INTENTIONALLY puts their high-value targets in civilian areas. They intentionally bring on civilian casualties. This is common practice, and not only Hamas does it. When the PLO was operating in southern Lebanon in the 80's, they launched missile strikes against Israel from neighborhoods. And guess WHICH neighborhoods they picked? They picked the Christian neighborhoods, hoping Israel would kill Christian Lebanese in the counterstrike! These were the very same Christians (that were once the majority in Lebanon) that opened their arms to take in the "Palestinian refugees" that Jordan booted out of the country.

Joel said...

Mr. Wood: "However, if there is anything that can be done, I think it will have to involve (1) showing people that the situation is much worse than they think,"

This certainly needs to be done, but with all due respect, what's the point if afterward all you're going to tell them is, "There's nothing you can do to stop it; it's inevitable." If the Muslim take-over of the West is inevitable, as you say, then we might as well let our fellow Westerners live the rest of their free existence in ignorant bliss.

What's needed is a plan of action to mobilize the troops, so to speak. What's needed is hope of victory. Otherwise all the eye-opening in the world becomes ineffective and, in the end, entirely useless.

Joel

El-Cid said...

KeithTruth said: "That one animal was saying
"Lets have a fu**in@ WAR!!!"

Fine then get out of here and assemble your army in the middle east. Then we can see what happens."

No. They know they don't stand even the slightest chance in that situation. The Jihadists want to entrench into our societies, disrupt the social order, create economic casualties, impose as much Shariah as they can, and corrode our system from within...all the while increasing numbers until open armed resistance and civil war is a feasible reality.

This is the pattern that has been working for them around the world so far.

Joel said...

El-Cid correctly points out: "No. They know they don't stand even the slightest chance in that situation. The Jihadists want to entrench into our societies, disrupt the social order, create economic casualties, impose as much Shariah as they can, and corrode our system from within...all the while increasing numbers until open armed resistance and civil war is a feasible reality."

Which is why our only defense is separating ourselves from Islam.

David Wood said...

Joel said: "This certainly needs to be done, but with all due respect, what's the point if afterward all you're going to tell them is, "There's nothing you can do to stop it; it's inevitable." If the Muslim take-over of the West is inevitable, as you say, then we might as well let our fellow Westerners live the rest of their free existence in ignorant bliss."

Wow. The way you misrepresent what I've said, you remind me of certain Muslims who post on this blog (and I find you even more annoying).

I said that "I suspect" it's inevitable, meaning (1) I don't think most Westerners care enough to do anything about Islam, and (2) I don't think Muslims care enough about truth to change their beliefs. I'm not sure how optimistic I should be given (1) and (2).

Does this mean I'm convinced that Islam will triumph? Obviously I'm not, or else I wouldn't be confronting Islam. I even went on to say what, if anything, might help change things. And you went on as if I had said, "It's over! It's all over! It's too late! Oh, boo hoo!"

Let me guess. Now you're going to complain that I said you're annoying. Or are you simply going to go on misrepresenting me?

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Joel-

I have to disagree with your position, and very strongly. You are treating all Muslims homogenously, as if they are one massive group. The fact is, they're not.

You may be more removed from your plan of action than I am, but what you are proposing is a deportation of my mother, my father, my sister, my nephew, my grandmother, my uncles, my aunts, my cousins, and many of my friends.

My father is a retired Lietenant Commander from the US Navy. My Uncle served for 10 years as an officer in the US Air Force. My other uncle is a Colonel in the US Army. They are all loyal Americans, and deporting them for being Muslim would be like the inhumanities we committed against Japanese Americans during WWII.

You're right, something should be done. But let's not repeat history and do the wrong thing. I like your zeal, but your proposal is horrid.

I'm at work right now, but I'll post more tonight.

-Nabeel

Bryant said...

Joel,

I think you need a big healthy dose of the sovereignty of God. Islam will never overtake us unless God allows it; and on the flip side, if it is in God's will we cannot stop them either. It is not for us to worry over these things. We must remain in constant prayer, trusting that God is working everything out for the good of those who love Him and are called for His purpose.

I sense great fear and distrust in your post. God does not want you to live this way.

DAN12345 said...

I saw one elderly muslim gentleman who keep standing in the polices way to protect them to get his people to stop throwing things but they still threw things when he was trying to stop them.he is a diamond in the rough,when trying to find a peacemaker out of them.But they cannot be blamed they follow their prophets example when it comes to conduct,,,

Yahya Hayder Seymour said...

David,

I'm surprised you're playing these types of propaganda games, you seem to want to suggest that this type of irrational behaviour which is antithetical to Islam is common place amongst the daily practice amongst the average joe muslim.

KeithTruth,

1) We can't deport people to Saudi Arabia unless they are actually from Saudi Arabia, in fact seeing as their accents are clearly not "fresh off the boat", how about we deport them to the district of London they were most likely born in.

2) Secondly they appear to be South East Asian as opposed to Arab so why Saudi Arabia, should we start deporting Hispanics to Africa as well?

Hogan,

Until you guys bring the leaders of the I.R.A to apologise to us here in London for everything then they will be taken as genuine reps of Christianity.

Javier said...

Religion of peace! Religion of peace! Or else!

El-Cid said...

Nabeel said: "You are treating all Muslims homogenously, as if they are one massive group. The fact is, they're not.

You may be more removed from your plan of action than I am, but what you are proposing is a deportation of my mother, my father, my sister, my nephew, my grandmother, my uncles, my aunts, my cousins, and many of my friends."

Exactly. You can't implement Joel's plan without causing America to cease to be America.

Nakdimon said...

Yahya: "1) We can't deport people to Saudi Arabia unless they are actually from Saudi Arabia, in fact seeing as their accents are clearly not "fresh off the boat", how about we deport them to the district of London they were most likely born in."

Well, I have always pleaded for those who have double nationality to strip them of their Dutch (in this case British) citizenship, since they have proven themselves to be unworthy of that citizenship, because their loyalty obviously lays somewhere else than Holland (or Britain). "No ifs ands or buts, OUT YOU GO AND STAY OUT!"

"Until you guys bring the leaders of the I.R.A to apologise to us here in London for everything then they will be taken as genuine reps of Christianity."

This is typical Muslim rhetoric. Unlike you the Brits are actually trying to get those guys from the IRA. Serious efforts have been made. On the other hand, what have you done about those guys from the Muslim Brotherhood, Al-Qaeda, Hizbollah, etc? You praise those guys in our faces.

The audacity of your proposal is staggering!

Nakdimon

Anyway, I have a new vid on my youtube page here: http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=aXCzGWWq27o

David Wood said...

Yahya said: "I'm surprised you're playing these types of propaganda games, you seem to want to suggest that this type of irrational behaviour which is antithetical to Islam is common place amongst the daily practice amongst the average joe muslim."

(1) So, according to Yahya, propaganda equals reporting recent events?

(2) As far as I can tell from Islamic sources, Muslims are supposed to react violently to practically every situation.

(3) Whether you agree with the views of these Muslims or not, can you honestly say that I shouldn't make people aware of them? It's as if you're saying, "Yes, there are tons of Muslims who are willing to attack police over something going on in a different country, but you'd better shut up about it."

(4) Here again, we find Muslims more concerned with keeping the deeds of Muslims quiet than with exposing the deeds they supposedly disagree with.

Perhaps a comparison is in order. When some leaders in the Catholic church were exposed, my reaction was not: "Oh no! The media should be quiet about this!" Instead, my reaction was, "I'm glad this is coming to light, since this will force the church to deal with it."

Similarly, if I were a Muslim who really believed in peace, I would not be upset when violent Muslims are exposed. Indeed, I would do everything in my power to expose them. But that's not what I see from Muslims. Everytime a video goes up reporting the violent ideology of many Muslims, the reaction from supposedly peaceful Muslims is "How dare you report this! Shut up about it! If there are tons of Muslims calling for war right here in the West, you have no right to mention this fact!"

I don't know what's more frightening, (a) the violent Muslims who want to take over the West from within, or (b) the peaceful Muslims who go berserk whenever someone points out (a).

Raguraman said...

Are these people the British who proudly ruled almost entire Earth ? What a shame that couple of immigrant Muslims are forcing British law into a corner. If a British citizen time travels to see what is happening in their country they would spit at these cowards and the politicians. They should have rounded up every single person in that demonstration dead/alive with rubber bullets and live weapons if necessary and should have taught them all a lesson. If anybody in future dares to raise a finger at law or at police officers, he should be beaten up like a dog in the streets, dragged to police station in front of every body. What the hell is wrong with British Police and politicians ? I thought these things take place only in Asian countries...

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Joel:
Mr. Wood (or anyone), what do you propose be done about this threat? I hear a lot of complaining and warnings about "things to come" from Islamic Jihad in the West, particularly in Britain, but yet I hardly ever hear anyone offering any solutions as to how to prevent this situation from actually being realized.


I think a line should be drawn ahead of time, and as soon as that line is crossed, appropriate action needs to take place. For example, violence against the police is a line that should not be crossed. As soon as it happens, arrests and imprisonment should result (regardless of whether its a Muslim protest, a Christian protest, or whatever.)

Threats of violence should also not be tolerated. Brits saying "Let's have a war! (i.e. against Britain)" should be arrested/deported.

Now, if Muslims were rallying and crying "Free Palestine!" but did not get violent nor did they attack police, then all the more to them. It's when they (or anyone) crosses certain lines that action should be taken.

As it was, the police in this video were pushovers and they just made it worse for themselves in the future.

Is the Islamic take-over of Britain and the West inevitable?

I think that Islam may very well take over the world soon. I'm not saying its inevitable, but it would fit with the Biblical description of the end of times.

As Christians, though, we are called to spread the Gospel not towards an end, but as an end. This is the command that's given to us: "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." The command is not "Go and evangelize while prospects look good! Evangelize until it looks like there's no hope!". No, our evangelism is not limited by projected outcomes. The command to us is: "Go! And I will be with you to the end."

This we must do, even if all else is crumbling around us: fight for the truth until we can fight no more. Fight with love, with intellect, and with the spirit of Christ. And, if we are to be honored with the same fate as the faithful men of the past, then some of us will face jeers and flogging, while still others will be chained and put in prison. We will be stoned, sawed in two, and put to death by the sword. This is what we can expect, my friend. At least that's how I read the Word.

I hope this does not upset you, Joel. Even Jesus encourages us to not be discouraged by the troubles of this world. I'll conclude this post by quoting our Lord: "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world!"

Your brother in Christ,
-Nabeel

Sunil said...

Joel,

>> Islam is only a threat to our freedom and survival ..

Where did Jesus say that our physical freedom and survival is the most important thing? Did Jesus or his disciples have such freedom/rights or did they politically/physically/militarily fight for it? We can fight (non-violently and non-discriminatorily) for freedom, survival etc. But that is not the greatest commandment from God nor is the great commission has anything to do with physical/political survival or freedom/rights.

A true disciple/follower of Jesus has no reason to be paranoid (while I am all for debates, exchange of ideas, encouraging such openness/honesty in Islamic nations, decent education among the Muslims etc). Jesus said: "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul ... Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows"

The lesson of OT is to depend on God (if Israel today is 'relying' on their weapons thinking that it is their weapons that will save them, they are so sadly mistaken). If the people of Israel (in OT) stayed in God, then God saved them with or without military capabilities. And vice versa. The OT wars, rather than demonstrating the aggression and military power, actually demonstrate the meekness of Israel, their complete dependency on God and sovereignty of God. I think the same applies to the people of God today (which is we who are followers of Jesus) and in a spiritual sense. As in OT wars (now in a spiritual sense) God Himself participates And as in OT, like in Gideons case, God sometimes picks up the weakest of vessels to demonstrate that the battle belongs to God.

There is a very interesting incident recorded in Luke 13 where some people report to Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices - a very provocative thing. But instead of reacting to the provocation, Jesus gives a lesson on repentance: "unless you repent, you will all likewise perish". I suspect Jesus would say the same about the threat of armed jihad etc – unless we repent and become true followers of Jesus, we too will perish.

Muslims living among us (not only in the west, but even in my country India, where Christians are a minority) is a God given opportunity for reaching out to them (and the Muslim world) in love in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus. Let us all remember again, that the battle belongs to the Lord.

El-Cid said...

I will say this for Joel's suggestions:

The U.S. (and Britain for that matter) has every right to deport non-citizens as the government of the people sees fit. As do we have the right (through our representative governments) to push for immigration reform that protects national security. And if this includes restricting or eliminating immigration from countries known to have a heavy influence from political-Islam, then this too is well within the rights of the citizenry to mobilize for. However, we have to draw strong clear lines at a point, and making Islam a "banned religion" (which is really the end-game of Joel's suggestion on this point) is completely inappropriate. When you eliminate one religion from your citizenry by the force of the state, it is likely that your religion will be next.

Nabeel said: "Threats of violence should also not be tolerated. Brits saying "Let's have a war! (i.e. against Britain)" should be arrested/deported."

Yes. And when those threats are repeated, and not in a context of excited utterance, they become treasonous and deserving of severe penalty.

Nabeel said: "As it was, the police in this video were pushovers and they just made it worse for themselves in the future."

Yeah, I don't see that protest being handled in that way in any major city in the States. As soon as the protestors starting throwing things at the police the tear gas, rubber bullets, and tazers would have come out.

Also, police make a VERY strong show of force when operating at such protests here. They would have been in full riot gear. I have the priveledge of living in a city dubbed "Little Beirut", so I have seen my share of police dealing with aggro protestors.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Sami said:

Hogan i find your comments rather strange, for starters you will never negatively critique anti-Islamic rooms on paltalk, so when they go on mic and started singing about killing Palestinians, when they go on mic calling all Muslims scum etc etc and worst and worst, you wont speak against that?

Elijah replies:

Actually you are wrong here, I have actively critisized anti-islamic rooms on pal-talk, I have warned Christians against these rooms.

And do not mix my reference to anti-islamic rooms with the rooms that concern Israel against Gaza, I am as much against the killing of Jews and Palestinians as you are, I am referring to individuals such as Christian Prince, who is a disgrace to Christianity, but nevertheless gets my support more than any islamic voice that propagates the kuffaric message of hate or attacks the Bible.

For your information that video portrayed me as a kuffar, an unbeliver, which to me as to any Christian or Jews is an offence. How do Pakistanis feel to be called pakis, or black people niggers? The Muslim vocabulary needs to be taken up much more seriously. The poor English prince is still being targeted in the media for phrase uttered years ago, and the Muslim community while demanding his apology refuses to receive his apology.

Sami said:

number 2 you then go on to make the general statement of so much for Islam being a religion of peace, and what makes you say this? a few Muslims who got abit violent and shouting anti-western slogans??????

Elijah replies:

A few violent protestors??? The entire crowd hunted down the police. How about a multiple number of demonstrations e.g. against Denmark, calling for the killing of Danish and the raping of Danish women. Do you find any demonstration of any other group in England calling out for such attrocities? A when you say a few Muslims getting violent, does that also count for million of Muslims in Muslim countries engaging in persecution and oppression of Christians; I mean travel to Pakistan or even Egypty and you will find entire Muslim communities involved with violence or oppression against the non-Muslims with exactly the same spirit we saw on the video.

Sami said:

so let me get this straight hogan, Islam is not a religion of peace now because of a few violent protesters, and the west is under a massive threat etc etc, yet as we speak 1000 palestinians have been killed, most of them women and children, yet no no thats not a big deal, when a few Muslims shout and get abit violent (without even killing ANYONE, nor seriously harming anyone) thats the major threat and problem, sheesh, from where do you get your standards from?

Elijah replies:

As I said I am as much against war and oppression as you are (I guess you and me join hands there) also toward the Palestinians, in the same way as I deplore Hamas for sending rockets into Israel.

However, I have enough worries about the safety of hundreds of thousands of Christians being oppressed by the Islamic regime in Sudan. I am constantly in pain because of my Christian sisters (approximately 70-100.000)who are still in slavery under Muslim master in Sudan and other Arabic countries. I am still concerned about the millions of Christians who have lost their freedom due to the Islamic Indonesian government (who is showing us to faces at the moment). I am concerned about the million of Christians over the entire Muslim world who predominantly are considered second class citizens and suffer the risk of rape, murder, loosing their homes, injustice in court at work and school, not because they plant bombs or engage in terrorism, but because adheres of your religion considers them kuffars.

I am glad you (Sami) are concerned about the wellbeing and safety for people of Palestine, God bless you for that, you have my sympathy and prayer.

But my concern as a Christian for my spiritual family concerns more people than the Palestinians, much more agression and much less media attention (if any at all).

Sami wrote:

hogan you then make another strange statement, demanding we bring this Muslim to apologize, lol, you know this is not possible, we dont even know who he is, we dont even see his face, so that is not possible and you know thats not possible, yet even if we did know him, your demand is outright silly.

Elijah replies:

Why is that silly, Muslims constantly demand an apology for any negative referrence against Islam (just take the current radio case in Glasgow). The guy on the video called non-Muslims kuffars, on a video, that is a major offence.

Sami wrote:

hogan how about you bring me each Christian to apologize for supporting Israels massacre of Gaza, how about that? you want us to bring you a Muslim who shouted and so on, then i want you to bring me the Christians who are actively supporting the murder of my fellow Palestinians in Palestine.

Elijah replies:

What Christians? Why do you keep drawing Christianity into the battle against Gaza. Hamaz launched hundreds rockets into Israel prior to any Israeli offence. You cannot blame me or any Christian for the current escalation.

Sami said:

see hogan here is the difference between me and you, you are protesting against a few men who shouted a few insults, and barely harmed anyone.

i on the other hand am protesting the active murder and oppression of 1.5 million Palestinians, and that says it all. you get all worked up by a demonstration, but you dont get worked up on the daily killing of innocent Palestinians, again, where do you get your standards from? i would really like to know.

Elijah replies:

Firstly my priority as a Christian is to demonstrate aainst the global persecution against Christians in Muslim countries in which according to statistics more than a hundred thousand have been killed pr year. That does give a standard.

Secondly, Why am I more concerned about the demonstration in London than about Gaza? I am not! You are reading words into my mouth.

My concern is that the violence of Gaza spreads to England, to our streets as means to oppose the government, the police, the order of the society and to categorize all of us as kuffars; for a war we are not even to blame for.

Those of us working in the West have paid lots of tax money to improve the situation in gaze to build up schools, provide education, where do you think all that money went? So rather than blaming me and every Westernern and Christian for the escalation of Gaza you ought to commend us for having tried to build up that society, and if you represent that government to apologize for having used the Western support to continue the former aggression, which Palestinians ought to move away from in a atempt to move forward for a better future.

To your information I was recently provided a Christian cd informing me how to sponsor financially clinical work among children among Palestinians. These were Christians. So funny enough Christian (despite that their own brothers and sisters are suffering greatly Muslim countries) have been pouring money in and every help possible to build up a better life for the people in Palestine.

Sami wrote:

see hogan here is the difference between me and you, you are protesting against a few men who shouted a few insults, and barely harmed anyone.

Elijah replies:

Let me put it this way! Lets have a few thousand Jews or Christians demonstrate in this manner in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia or Egypt, including barely harming any Muslim police man, just intimidate them with a large crowd, throw heavy objects at them and call them pigs and unbelievers. If that Islamic authority reacts in manners similar as the English, I will take back my words. Unfortunately if you called a Muslim in Pakistan a unbeliver you would probably be lynched, otherwise arrested, tortured and accused of blasmphy, and in Egypt or Saudi Arabia, well...?

Yahya wrote:

Hogan,

Until you guys bring the leaders of the I.R.A to apologise to us here in London for everything then they will be taken as genuine reps of Christianity.

Elijah replies:

?

Joel said...

Wood: "Wow. The way you misrepresent what I've said, you remind me of certain Muslims who post on this blog (and I find you even more annoying)."

If I've misrepresented you, then say so, but there's no reason to compare me to Muslims. If I have misrepresented you, I did not do it on purpose.

Wood: "I said that "I suspect" it's inevitable, meaning (1) I don't think most Westerners care enough to do anything about Islam, and (2) I don't think Muslims care enough about truth to change their beliefs. I'm not sure how optimistic I should be given (1) and (2)."

OK, thank you for clarifying your position. I apologize for misreading your words.

Wood: "Let me guess. Now you're going to complain that I said you're annoying. Or are you simply going to go on misrepresenting me?"

I think, considering your hostility towards me, I'm just going to ignore you from this point forward. I'll annoy you no more.

Qureshi: "I have to disagree with your position, and very strongly. You are treating all Muslims homogenously, as if they are one massive group. The fact is, they're not."

f I am treating all Muslims homogeneously it is because I am forced to. I clearly made distinctions all throughout my post between so-called peaceful Muslims and the more radical variety. I specifically acknowledged that most Muslims aren't "out to get us."

But here's the question: Can you tell the difference between the radical Muslim and the peace-loving Muslim? Until you can come up with a way to do so with 100% accuracy I am forced to lump all Muslims in together. If that seems unfair do not blame me; blame the radical Muslim population that has made Western co-existence with Islam an impossibility.

Bryant: "I think you need a big healthy dose of the sovereignty of God. Islam will never overtake us unless God allows it; and on the flip side, if it is in God's will we cannot stop them either. It is not for us to worry over these things. We must remain in constant prayer, trusting that God is working everything out for the good of those who love Him and are called for His purpose.

I sense great fear and distrust in your post. God does not want you to live this way."

Bryant, I appreciate your concern, but I believe and trust whole-heartedly in the sovereignty of God. Of course, I also believe in the power of prayer. What I don't believe in however is sitting back and doing nothing all while banking on God's sovereignty to save the day. This is akin to the hyper-Calvinist's view of evangelism, which I also reject.

El-Cid: "Exactly. You can't implement Joel's plan without causing America to cease to be America."

As opposed to continuing to allow Muslim infiltration into our country while it slowly but surely ceases to be nothing like historic, Christian America?

Joel

Joel said...

Qureshi: "I think a line should be drawn ahead of time, and as soon as that line is crossed, appropriate action needs to take place. For example, violence against the police is a line that should not be crossed. As soon as it happens, arrests and imprisonment should result (regardless of whether its a Muslim protest, a Christian protest, or whatever.)"

But if this violent Muslim population continues to be an ever growing presence within our society, that line will be crossed over and over again. And the fact of the matter is if Islam had no place in our society, we would have no need for any such line. Nor would we have a need for ridiculous "security" measures at airports and elsewhere.

And what if the Jihadists catch on to your no-line crossing strategy as they inevitably will? All they have to do then is hang low until they've en massed the numbers and influence they need to erase the lines from the inside and establish their own lines.

The Jihadists know what they're doing, and silent Jihad is by far their most effective weapon. As long as we have a significant population of Muslims living within our Western borders, we're going to remain subjected to this threat.

Qureshi: "I think that Islam may very well take over the world soon. I'm not saying its inevitable, but it would fit with the Biblical description of the end of times."

I don't agree that the Muslim take-over of the world (or anything akin to it) is found anywhere in Scripture. Nor do I think we're living in the "end times." So I have no sense of this being anything close to an inevitable, biblically prophesied event. Here we have radical differences of interpretation of eschatology.

Qureshi: "The command is not "Go and evangelize while prospects look good! Evangelize until it looks like there's no hope!". No, our evangelism is not limited by projected outcomes. The command to us is: "Go! And I will be with you to the end."

No where did I say or imply anywhere in my posts anything contrary to what you have just said. Of course we are to preach the gospel to everyone, whether in season or out of season, for the sake of the elect and because Christ has commanded us to do so. I agree completely with this.

On the other hand, you don't go looking for unnecessary and preventable persecution, either. My whole point has been to PROTECT the relative freedom we now enjoy here in the West to spread and promote the gospel, not only within our own countries, but around the world as well. That freedom will be significantly dampened if sharia were to be imposed in our lands.

Now, please don't get me wrong: God is sovereign and the gospel of Jesus Christ will move forward as He has ordained it with or without the help of the West. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't do all that we can to save the West, for the gospel's sake.

Qureshi: "I hope this does not upset you, Joel. Even Jesus encourages us to not be discouraged by the troubles of this world. I'll conclude this post by quoting our Lord: "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world!"

I'm not upset at all, Nabeel. In fact, I'm greatly encouraged by your Christian demeanor and attitude. I just regret my dialogue with your colleague Mr. Wood went so sour, mostly due to my own faults I'm sure. I'm still learning.

Thanks, Nabeel.

Joel

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

I Apologize Sami

I realise I am far too angry in my letter. I know you have roots in Palestine, of course it is a matter of personal concern.

I myself have been persecuted, and nearly killed a longside a number of other Christians, which is why Christians under persecution is a great concern to me; my emotions run high sometimes. Of course when I see the spirit of such a demonstration things get back to me.

I hope no offence, I will keep you and your nation in my prayer (well I do so everyday)

God bless bro

Joel said...

El-Cid: "However, we have to draw strong clear lines at a point, and making Islam a "banned religion" (which is really the end-game of Joel's suggestion on this point) is completely inappropriate."

As I noted earlier, I think it's important to recognize that Islam is not your typical religion. Rather, for all intents and purposes, it is better classified as a political ideology. And this political ideology clearly states its intentions to undermine and eventually destroy the West from within (as well as every other "kuffar" nation in the world). I'm interested, first and foremost, in banning Islam as a political movement.

El-Cid: "When you eliminate one religion from your citizenry by the force of the state, it is likely that your religion will be next."

And yet if sharia were to be imposed in America, the Muslims would have no problem banning your religion or anyone else's; in fact, that's exactly what they will do under sharia. If you want to save freedom of religion in this country then you must discriminate against those who would take that privilege away from you.

Islam and the West cannot, by the very anti-Christian and anti-Western nature of Islam, co-exist peacefully for any extended length of time. Either we, as the West, eradicate it from our shores, or allow the problem to fester until we are slowly taken over by it.

Joel

Nakdimon said...

Elijah replies:
For your information that video portrayed me as a kuffar, an unbeliver, which to me as to any Christian or Jews is an offence. How do Pakistanis feel to be called pakis, or black people niggers? The Muslim vocabulary needs to be taken up much more seriously. The poor English prince is still being targeted in the media for phrase uttered years ago, and the Muslim community while demanding his apology refuses to receive his apology.


Nakdimon: Yes, but Sami doesn’t see that!

Elijah replies:
A few violent protestors??? The entire crowd hunted down the police. How about a multiple number of demonstrations e.g. against Denmark, calling for the killing of Danish and the raping of Danish women. Do you find any demonstration of any other group in England calling out for such attrocities? A when you say a few Muslims getting violent, does that also count for million of Muslims in Muslim countries engaging in persecution and oppression of Christians; I mean travel to Pakistan or even Egypty and you will find entire Muslim communities involved with violence or oppression against the non-Muslims with exactly the same spirit we saw on the video.


Nakdimon: Yes, but Sami doesn’t see that!

Elijah replies:
As I said I am as much against war and oppression as you are (I guess you and me join hands there) also toward the Palestinians, in the same way as I deplore Hamas for sending rockets into Israel.


Nakdimon: Yes, but Sami doesn’t see that!

However, I have enough worries about the safety of hundreds of thousands of Christians being oppressed by the Islamic regime in Sudan. I am constantly in pain because of my Christian sisters (approximately 70-100.000)who are still in slavery under Muslim master in Sudan and other Arabic countries. I am still concerned about the millions of Christians who have lost their freedom due to the Islamic Indonesian government (who is showing us to faces at the moment). I am concerned about the million of Christians over the entire Muslim world who predominantly are considered second class citizens and suffer the risk of rape, murder, loosing their homes, injustice in court at work and school, not because they plant bombs or engage in terrorism, but because adheres of your religion considers them kuffars.

Nakdimon: Yes, but Sami doesn’t see that!


Elijah replies:
Why is that silly, Muslims constantly demand an apology for any negative referrence against Islam (just take the current radio case in Glasgow). The guy on the video called non-Muslims kuffars, on a video, that is a major offence.


Nakdimon: Yes, but Sami doesn’t see that!

Elijah replies:
What Christians? Why do you keep drawing Christianity into the battle against Gaza. Hamaz launched hundreds rockets into Israel prior to any Israeli offence. You cannot blame me or any Christian for the current escalation.


Nakdimon: Yes, but Elijah, you have to understand that Sami doesn’t see that! When muslims commit atrocities all over the place, WE can’t generalise. See, that’s Islamophobic, although they quote their scriptures, they use their Islamic vocabulary, recite the Shahadah and claim obedience to their god and prophet every time they do that! But somehow Christians are responsible for what Israel does, for what Denmark does, for what the US does, for what anyone does that isn’t a Muslim, although those people never mention their religion or use religious vocabulary. They are even proud atheists in the overwhelming majority of the cases. See, that is allowed. But, see, Sami…doesn’t…see that!

Elijah replies:
My concern is that the violence of Gaza spreads to England, to our streets as means to oppose the government, the police, the order of the society and to categorize all of us as kuffars; for a war we are not even to blame for.


Nakdimon: Yes, but Sami doesn’t see that!

Those of us working in the West have paid lots of tax money to improve the situation in gaze to build up schools, provide education, where do you think all that money went? So rather than blaming me and every Westernern and Christian for the escalation of Gaza you ought to commend us for having tried to build up that society, and if you represent that government to apologize for having used the Western support to continue the former aggression, which Palestinians ought to move away from in a atempt to move forward for a better future.

Nakdimon: Yes, but Sami doesn’t see that!

To your information I was recently provided a Christian cd informing me how to sponsor financially clinical work among children among Palestinians. These were Christians. So funny enough Christian (despite that their own brothers and sisters are suffering greatly Muslim countries) have been pouring money in and every help possible to build up a better life for the people in Palestine.

Nakdimon: Yes, but Sami doesn’t see that!

Elijah replies:
Let me put it this way! Lets have a few thousand Jews or Christians demonstrate in this manner in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia or Egypt, including barely harming any Muslim police man, just intimidate them with a large crowd, throw heavy objects at them and call them pigs and unbelievers. If that Islamic authority reacts in manners similar as the English, I will take back my words. Unfortunately if you called a Muslim in Pakistan a unbeliver you would probably be lynched, otherwise arrested, tortured and accused of blasmphy, and in Egypt or Saudi Arabia, well...?


Nakdimon: Yes, but Sami doesn’t see that! And therefore, somehow, WE are to blame for anything that goes wrong in the Muslim society. Not their policy! No, somehow it has to do something with us.

Nakdimon

george said...

dear friends ,those vedious were eye opener to every non-muslims.it speaks louder about what the nation will be when these muslims come on majority.
dear muslims ,will u people tell why muslims in britain and other part of the world have to break others head when palestine people were killed in israel attack? is it just coz they are muslims or humnaity matters?if humnaity matters then why dont we see these funny muslims do same when pakistan attacks india or when WTC was attacked or when hamas kills israels or even when muslims terrorist bang people ?
sami u have lot to say about children and women killed in palestine.it makes me laugh as u want to say mens lives never cost much !!!.i think there is not bullet or missile which goes just seeking males not women or children.in war anything can happen.u have to note israel is attacked and they warned about attacking back if hamas not going to stop its enuch attack.even it has to be noted that israel showered pamplets to palestine people to vacate themself to save their lives coz isreal is gonna destroy it.
people like sami who praise terrorist attacks which happens without warning where people are killed badly.
if humanity matters then let is work together to bring our best to end these types.

WESTERN PEOPLE WILL HAVE TO PAY WITH THEIR LIVES FOR ALLOWING THESE MUSLIMS IN THEIR LAND.

Joel said...

Sunil: "Where did Jesus say that our physical freedom and survival is the most important thing? Did Jesus or his disciples have such freedom/rights or did they politically/physically/militarily fight for it?"

Sunil, should political activism and physical self-protect hold any sway in the Christian life? Because what you appear to me to be advocating is a kind Christian pacifism.

On some level we as Christians should to be participating in the political process, should we not? Or should we leave all of that stuff up to our secular betters? I don't get the sense from the New Testament that we are to be like monks hiding away in monasteries up in the mountains having nothing to do with our outside, physical world. Just imagine if everyone in America adopted this attitude. We'd be overrun by political enemies and criminals in no time.

I never said or implied that "our physical freedom and survival is the most important thing." You've taken that first part of my sentence you quoted there and have used it completely out of context to what I was actually saying. Now who's misrepresenting who?

Sunil: "We can fight (non-violently and non-discriminatorily) for freedom, survival etc. But that is not the greatest commandment from God nor is the great commission has anything to do with physical/political survival or freedom/rights."

Where in the Bible does it say that we as Christians are not to discriminate? We discriminate all the time, every single day! It's part of what it means to be a human. The very fact that you are a Christian today is demonstration of your own discrimination -- against Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and every other competing world religion.

Jesus himself discriminated against people and ideas all the time. Indeed, "I am the Way the Truth and the Life." may be the most discriminatory statement in all of history!

Of course we can discriminate; in fact, we are commanded to do just that (John 7:24, Matthew 7:16, etc.). Without discrimination, we could not even adequately fight for our own faith. And without discrimination we could surely never survive, either in this physical life or the spiritual life ahead.

As I said before, non-discrimination is not a Christian value; it is a Western liberal value. A little more discrimination in this country and we wouldn't be in the mess we're currently in -- spiritually, politically or what have you. Discrimination, then, is not the problem, but rather the liberal post-modernism driven lack thereof.

Joel

Javier said...

Joel seems to confuse the City of God with the City of Man.

Sunil said...

Joel,

>> Can you tell the difference between the radical Muslim and the peace-loving Muslim?

I think there is a way: If a person openly supports values like universal human rights, equality before law, minority rights, freedom of speech/religion, open debate of religion, honest scholarship etc and does a spirited advocacy of these values to the Islamic nations and explicitly/often lamblast the people/nations who do not follow these, then that is an indicator. Such people should get together and start a movement to change the Muslim nations/societies. Other leaders, TV anchors etc should encourage such peace-loving muslims and give them opportunity to air their views.

Sunil said...

Joel,

>> What I don't believe in however is sitting back and doing nothing all while banking on God's sovereignty to save the day.
>> On some level we as Christians should to be participating in the political process, should we not?

Jesus did not advocate "sitting back and doing nothing". He has given us more than enough to do - to be the salt and light of the world, be his disciples, make disciples, proclaim gospel, feeding poor, hungry, reaching out the suffering people in love, build God-loving societies, support the victims in injustice/exploitation, speak for the voiceless etc. This may include participation in political process, but in a manner that does not violate the commandments of Jesus/Scriptures, indulging in discriminatory violations of human rights, driving away people etc. Jesus has defined what we have to do and what God will take care: " Store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal.. But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own"

>> what you appear to me to be advocating is a kind Christian pacifism

I believe that the state has a duty to ensure law and order, protect the citizens, human rights etc on behalf of all the citizens equally. For that purpose the state (including Christians who are in the role of police/army/politics etc) can use force where required against the violators of the rights and security of the citizens. This may include an unfortunate need to go to war in the most extreme of situations with best efforts to minimize non-combatant civilian casualties and with as minimal force as is required for the objective.

>> The very fact that you are a Christian today is demonstration of your own discrimination -- against Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and every other competing world religion.

The distinction between good and evil, truth and falsehood, proclaiming that Jesus is the only true/genuine Incarnation etc is not the same as discriminating in the sense of violating human rights, displacing them from their homes etc (instead of showing them the love of Jesus).

Sami Zaatari said...

Hogan i read your long response, i agree with most of what you say including the bad oppression to some Christians, which shouldnt happen, i dont support those things, as you say, we are hand in hand.

Sami Zaatari said...

Nakdimon i think you are talking alot of mis-info about me, saying i dont see i dont see, i dont support what the northern sudanease did to the southern christians, only a mad person could, and i dont support other atrocities commited against them, you on the other hand, support israels acts in ghaza, so lets not play games, your the one who supports genocide and atrocities, not me.

secondly, dont think you know me, back in the UAE there is a christian living in my house, been living with us for 8 years now, so dont go around acting like im some person hell bent on watching christians die and bleed, saying i wouldnt be against oppression against Christians.

Sami Zaatari said...

Hogan your comments do seem more understandable to me, because as you said, you have a connection due to PERSONAL circumstances, its not something in the news, its you, and that makes me understand where your comming from, and your anger is justified because i feel the exact same way you do as we are in the same situation.

El-Cid said...

Joel said: "Rather, for all intents and purposes, it is better classified as a political ideology."

and...: "And yet if sharia were to be imposed in America, the Muslims would have no problem banning your religion or anyone else's; in fact, that's exactly what they will do under sharia."

You are preaching to the choir on both these points Joel. Unfortunately, I cannot find a way to address these issues in the manner you suggest (i.e. banning Islam) without destroying the very fabric of what makes our country what it is. While Islam does without a doubt have a mandated political element, it is still a religious practice (a theological organization), and I see no way of "separating" it's adherents from America without erradicating our notion of freedom of religion. Also, I think it is naive to believe that once we "eliminate the threat" we will go back to being the same free country we were before. There will be other "threats" to deal with. Enacting your plan would give unprecedented power to the Federal government, and require them to invade personal liberty in a way that would be completely destructive to our constitutional liberties. And one thing we can be sure of from history, is that when you give more powers to a central government, that central government does NOT just hand those powers back.

I feel our best bet is:

1) Anti-Shariah legislation (there are groups already working on this)

2) Immigration reform; As a society we can choose which cultures have values that we wish to 'import', and which don't.

3) Christians need to properly evangelize America. If we don't fulfill the Great Commission, Muslims are more than happy to fill the spiritual void by giving dawah (and there should be a specific emphasis on prison populations and disaffected minorities, as these are groups Muslims have been effectively focusing on for decades)

4) Those who are knowledgeable enough to discuss the flaws and untruths in Islam MUST speak out and spread the information that undermines the false Islamic claims.

Muslims currently comprise slightly less than 1% of the U.S. population. If the above measures are vigorously taken, we will not have to worry about a large group of citizenry being ready for so-called "radicalization".

Nakdimon said...

Sami: "Nakdimon i think you are talking alot of mis-info about me, saying i dont see i dont see, i dont support what the northern sudanease did to the southern christians, only a mad person could, and i dont support other atrocities commited against them, you on the other hand, support israels acts in ghaza, so lets not play games, your the one who supports genocide and atrocities, not me. "

Sami, I made those comments because it seems to me that you are totally oblivious of the things that are going on. You are always trying to marginalize the acts of your fellow Muslims and attack the ones that complain about them. And then put a spin on things to blame christians and christianity for things they aren't even asociated with. that's why I made the comments I made, because it seems that you dont see that!

Second, YES I support Israel. For the simple reason that they should show groups like Hizbollah and Hamas that they aren't to mess around with Israel. And talking about Genocide. PLEASE spare me the chuckles! What Israel does over there in Gaza is nothing like Genocide, since they warn people in the areas that they are about to attack, before they attack it. Yet, for some strange reason, people always end up on the exact same spot where Israel has warned them not to be at that time. One can't help but to think that Hamas is using those people as human shields to prevent Israel from attacking their weapon deposits which they hide among the very people they are to protect. You dont mean to tell me that all those people have a death wish, so much so, that almost every target Israel hits, they hit the very people they have warned not to be there.

Sorry Sami, but if you want to accuse a party of Genocide, blame Hamas, who dont give a dime for the lives of the people that they treat like animals.

If they love death like we love life, as they always claim they do, then why not stand in front of the civilians instead of hiding behind them?

Nakdimon

Javier said...

David Wood certainly forgot that Muslims in Britain are mostly south east Asian and certainly forgot what the Brits did killing millions of Indians(Hindus and Muslims) just for being inferior race when Indians had a history of 10,000 years old.

he forgot britaina used to tell what to do bacvk then, what laws to follow.

He forgot in some wars millions were killed.
he also have to keep in mind the majority Muslims come form there. And they have nothing to do with Spain invasion and turk invasion.
They were merely converted)( I said this cause you might say what about Muslims and what they did.) This claim doesn't go to the south east Asians since they were converted and am proud of it today to be one of them.

I think they have the right to even own britian since all the wealth came from colonization and since jews were killed in 6 millions what about 30 millions in some war in south east asia???



And i am not from Britain by the way.

Sunil said...

Javier,

>> Brits did killing millions of Indians(Hindus and Muslims)

What about before the British in India? Was it not the Muslim invasion/rule? As an Indian myself, who take pride in our freedom struggle against the British, I must also add that many in India are also happy that the British ended the Muslim rule in India. The British ruled under the banner of colonialism and not in the name of Christianity (unlike Muslim invasions which is under the banner of Islam, right from the time of Muhammad himself). Even if you assume that the British rule had something to do with a banner of Christianity, you still know that it has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus/NT.

>> I think they have the right to even own britian since all the wealth came from colonization ..

Whatever grievance about loss of wealth due to colonization that the Indians (or south east Asians) have, why should that grievance be the exclusive domain of Muslims? (Are Hindus behaving like this in the streets of London?) And why are these south-east asian muslims in London not protesting the problems that India/south east Asia is facing with say, Islamic terrorism (which would be more relevant if you want to bring in south east Asians) rather than about Palestine issue? I participate in Indian discussion forums and I see how many Indians lament the fact about how Indian Muslims are more obsessed with Palestine and other worldwide Muslim issues rather than the multiple issues that India itself faces.