Robert Spencer Defends Wilders
Pam Meister Defends Wilders
And, speaking against Mr. Wilders, we have these insightful comments from Sami Zaatari:
"hate or love it, Islam is here to stay, you can be as sick of it and the Muslims as much as you want, were here to stay folks, and just on a side note, the recent new mayor of rotterdam, the second most populated city in Holland is a Muslim, hurraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. :) :) :) :), thats just the icing on the cake."
35 comments:
People could also check out his videos on Christianity as well 1,2,3,4,5,6,7
lol i knew David was going to post this video, thats why i came to check the blog!
lol the irony is so amazing, they are complaining about the very same thing that wilders wishes to do, or the lovely irony.
brother bassam you can bet that most Christians dont care about condells video attacks on Christianity where he likens Christians to dogs, anyone who attacks Islam is good enough, it dont matter if he attacks them too. imagine that, this man compares Christians to dogs and Christians are standing by him!
hate or love it, Islam is here to stay, you can be as sick of it and the Muslims as much as you want, were here to stay folks, and just on a side note, the recent new mayor of rotterdam, the second most populated city in Holland is a Muslim, hurraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. :) :) :) :), thats just the icing on the cake.
If people are forced silent on their contrary views against Islam it is likely to lead to violence against Muslims.
Freedom of speech is a pressure-valve release that allows people to feel they are exercising their internally held beliefs. Once you remove this, people become frustrated, angry and eventually violent.
Mark my words, the more people are silenced in regards to their opinions about the belief system of Islam, the more Muslims will be victims of violence.
Open dialogue reduces xenophobia, and prevents other (often undesirable) forms of expression.
El-Cid, maybe you havent paid attention to Geert's words? he wants the Quran banned, effectively banning Islam, he wants Muslims to be banned from Holland, he wants everything to do with Islam out of Holland, now i dont know about you, but this doesnt sound like a DIALOG to me. infact el-Cid your making a contradictory statement, you say freedom of dialog etc reduces xenophobia, yet as i said, wilders wants all Muslims BANNED from Holland, lol and thats going to end xenophobia????????
it would seem more accurate to me that saying Islam is like facism, nazism, ban it, kick them out, theyre a threat etc etc, if you ask me if you let ppl like this contiously preach their bigoted views, then this is the type of thing that leads to attacks and hate crimes.
it seems everyone wants to pretend that this man geert wilders is someone like David Wood etc, geert wilders is a right wing bigoted xenophobic person who wants to ban the freedoms you are shouting for, so lets stop pretending that we are dealing with some normal man looking for open dialog or debate, because were not.
if this was a well known dutch Muslim calling the Torah a nazi like book, saying ban the Jews from holland, ban the Torah, theyre a threat etc etc what do you think would happen??? lets get real, this would never be tolerated against the Jews, but with Muslims ohhhhh its freedom of speech u know let the man speak, its freedom!
Sami,
I'm about to post a response to your comments. I was wondering: Which article or video are you referring to when you say that Wilders wants all Muslims banned from Holland? Could you give me the reference?
Sami,
I wasn't speaking directly to what Wilders may or may not want to see happen as a matter of public policy.
Open dialogue, like what we are engaging in now, or when you debate publically is what needs to be protected. Protecting that requires defending the right of people to speak even when you find their ideas offensive.
This is the basis of an egalitarian free society. This is high-level citizenship here Sami. It's not for the faint of heart. And anyone that is not emotionally prepared for such rigors, should seek out a society that does not require such psychological tenacity and dexterity. You have to be prepared to stand up for people's right to say things, even if you have spent your whole life opposing their views.
When you engage in censhorship (which is what Muslims have in most countries in the Middle East, and what they are pushing for all over Europe), you create suspicion. If Wilders' claims are false Muslims should be calmly and rationally refuting his claims not seeking to shut him up at any cost. A proper refutation should leave you feeling confident in your position with little worry. For example, I defend Pat Condell's right to criticize anything and everything I believe in (I even defend his right to mock my religion, my Savior, and call me a "dog"). He should be refuted, not silenced. His words don't effect the truth which I hold dear.
Your methodology of evaluating this situation is both backwards and short sited, Sami. Creating a "protected status" for an ideology, and making it beyond criticism WILL (not might, will) lead to violence against people that identify with that ideology. On the other hand, collectively dealing with criticism in a mature way that upholds the values of egalitarian freedom reassures people that members of your subculture are positive additions to the society at large.
The psychological and sociological framework you are operating from is flawed Sami. There is no doubt that as soon as you silence open criticism of Islam you will be opening the door to violence against Muslims.
David: “Which article or video are you referring to when you say that Wilders wants all Muslims banned from Holland? Could you give me the reference?”
There is no such video, because that is a misrepresentation of what Wilders ever said. Wilders wants all those Muslims banned that stir up strife and are involved in criminal activity. Those who pollute society. Those Muslims he wants banned. He also has an issue with the double nationality of Muslims in the Dutch Parliament, such as Al Bayrak and Abu-Taleb (who is now the mayor of Rotterdam), because he believes that double nationality means double loyalty. And he has a point! If you have a Dutch AND a Turkish or Moroccan passport, you shouldn’t be able to occupy such high positions. And it does not only go for Muslims, but for any nationality other than the Dutch. But it so happens that Moroccan people cannot give up their Moroccan nationality. That is not possible by Moroccan law.
So Wilders addresses this. But because he is the only one that has the nerve to open his mouth to say anything about this, he is the one that lives under constant protection of body guards. But that is typical for those who dare to criticize Islam in the public square. Somehow they have everything to fear from the religion of peace.
"Oh yeah David, you agree with Pat Condell on human rights? But he's a critic of christianity! How desperate you are! You agree with an atheist on free speech! LOLOLOL! First we expose you on 'if you have sex with women you take as war booty it's not rape because Islam is peaceful" and now this! Islam will dominate the world and there is nothing you can do!"
With apologetics like these, who needs critics?
any news from Arabic Christian Perspective on the produced debates David?
Yahya,
You don't need to ask me fifty trillion times about the videos. I've told ACP you want the videos. I don't know what else I can do that you can't do. I don't run their organization. I'm still waiting for copies of debates I did over the SUMMER.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5563071.ece : Wilders wants an end to the Quran in Holland, as well as banning Muslims from moving there.
http://navedz.wordpress.com/2008/09/06/enough-is-enough/ calls for the Quran to be banned, and also rip parts of it out
http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/article451338.ece/Genoeg_is_genoeg_verbied_de_Koran and here is his letter which is quoted in the second link, which calls for the Quran to be banned.
:) i hope you guys are not going to pretend now that Wilders does not want the Quran to be banned, and has not called for it, i mean common, just give up. just admit your defending a man for wanting the very same thing you are 'supposedly' against
"I am fed up with Islam in the Netherlands: no more Muslim immigrants allowed. I am fed up with the worship of Allah and Muhammad in the Netherlands: no more mosques," his letter concluded.
lol and this is the guy you are all standing up for, tell me, where were all of you standing up against him and shouting for freedom when he made these comments????????? lets stop the games.
Sami,
Let me repeat my question. Where did Wilders say that all Muslims should be banned? (That's the claim you made about him.) Were you attempting to deceive us here?
And didn't we already address the issue of defending Wilders's right to free speech in a previous post? Didn't we say, (1) that Wilders has the right to say that the Qur'an should be banned, and (2) that Muslims have the right to their opinion about Wilders, but (3) whenever the government takes away someone's right to hold their views, we will object? Didn't we show that you're the one who's being inconsistent (since you find it perfectly acceptable to prosecute Wilders for his views, while you would go berserk if Muslims were prosecuted for their views), and that we're being completely consistent (since we find it unacceptable to prosecute either Wilders or Muslims for their views)?
I'll do a post on this inconsistency later today. As a preview, I'll say now that I'm going to use your words to show that, based on your standards, the UK has the right to ban Muslims from society, and, since 44% of UK Muslims have said that they don't want to be a part of UK society, Muslims have no right to object. In other words, since you've said that the government has the right to take away Wilders's rights since he has a certain view of immigration, it would be perfectly acceptable, on your view, to take away the rights of UK Muslims, since they hold a certain view of British society.
David his comments are in the link, so im not trying to decieve anyone, are you trying to decieve people by making it seem that wilders didnt say such things when he clearly did? if so, plz bring proof, because my proof and quotes are in the link, in point of fact i already know what your going to use from his statements.
as for banning Muslims etc, David do whatever you want, you seem to miss my point, im exposing your double standards, thats all, you complain about others, but dont mind when you do the same thing! thats my entire point, so your not going to be using my standards at all, my whole statements are based on exposing the double standards, you want to ban the Quran, fine, yet dont complain if you get banned, thats my whole point. go ahead, ban UK Muslims, but dont complain when Christians get banned in Muslim countries, which somehow i doubt you will which proves my entire point, you complain on others, but dont complain when you do the same.
Ban this wretched book like Mein Kampf is banned! Send a signal to Jami’s attackers and other Islamic radicals that the Quran cannot be used in the Netherlands as an inspiration or an excuse for violence,” here you go David, or lol is this not good enough?
or will you be so desperate and respond back (which i think you will) by saying wilders is only refering to the radicals. wilders didnt say just ban parts of the Quran from getting into the hands of radicals, but ban it all, just like how the mein kempf is banned. so ban the Quran as a whole from millions of Muslims just because a few made an attack???
David, just give up and admit the reality, he called for the Quran to be banned.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8McIz0ejukg&feature=related david here you go, another link for you, a dutch person telling you what geert said in dutch, with english subs, it seems your the only one who wants to desperately cling onto this false notion that wilders wasnt generalizing and only refering to some people when its obvious that thats not the case, deal with the reality.
"David, you are so desperate. You defend the man who says we should ban books which command people to rape and kill. Just become a muslim."
matthew, are you refering to your Bible?
at least matthew you admit he called for it, and you seem to agree with it, lo and behold the lovely Christian standard, were for freedom of speech, yet we want to ban your text of 1.5 billion people, if we want to do that, we should start with your bible which has rape, murder, and cannabilism as well, not to mention incest, sex stories, u name it, the bible has it.
matthew i agree, become a Muslim, leave this book which you call the holy bible which advocates murder, rape, genocide, etc etc. no doubt civilized people for humanity cannot stand by such a book, which is why most Christians who eventually read this barbarism in the bible become apostates. infact the bible is so barbaric certain christians had to form their own sect to get away from the bible, the marcionites, they were so shocked by the bible they had to disown it and say someone evil must have done those things! i agree! so matthew is that the book you were refering to? i think you were, so indeed, become a Muslim.
matthew heres a challenge for you, if you can disprove me, and say no Sami theres no rape, genocide, murder, incest, sex stories in the Bible, then i Sami will leave Islam, i cant say ill become Christian, but ill leave Islam.
:)
Sami Zaatari said: «i cant say ill become Christian»... glaad!!! and who wantes thate? It would the worste example for the deffense of truth... unless Sami dicided not to be the same Sami whe got accostumed in tha paste years...
Sami: if you can prove us alle that all those things you say that are in the Bible are prescriptive to christians, as clearly are what is in the Qur'an and in the haddiths (eben both have been corrupted...) we all leave Christianity... we won't be muslims (that woulde be like becoming atheÃsts...), but we all should leave christianity...
Butt then: no where in your links are an apeal to the expulsion of all muslims from Holand (that was what professore Wood asked from you... after you said «wilders wants all Muslims BANNED from Holland»), as Muhammad said to be done in Arabia to non-muslims... who is the biggest racist? the biggest intolerant? the biggest genocidal?
here is the translation of the text in dutch:
«The Koran is a fascist book that calls for violence, writes Geert Wilders. Therefore, the book, like Mein Kampf, should be prohibited.
I call it for years: a moderate Islam does not exist. Who does not want to believe me: read the speech last year that unfortunately deceased Italian writer Oriana Fallaci on November 28, 2005 held in New York, when she took an award in honor of its heroic resistance against Islamic fascism and its struggle for freedom "A moderate Islam does not exist. It does not exist, because there is no distinction between good and bad Islam Islam. There is Islam, and keep it with him on. And Islam is the Koran, and nothing but the Koran. And the Koran is the Mein Kampf of a religion that seeks to eliminate others, those others - non-Muslims - called infidel dogs, inferior beings. Read the Koran, that Mein Kampf, again. Which version is, you will see that all the evil that the sons of Allah against us and committed themselves, from the book comes (Oriana Fallaci, The Force of Reason, post-script, pp. 305, February 2006). '
Ehsan Jami is a infidel dog, a renegade Muslim who had the courage the prophet Mohammed a criminal and some provisions of the Koran called retarded. And that's just in his head had to stand up for other renegade dogs and even a committee has been set up. Allah is the death penalty for apostasy is appropriate. Last Saturday was almost a reality: the infidel Jami was by two Moroccans and a Somali to bloedens rammed into each other.
Enough is enough. Let's stop politically correct gedraai and intrigue. It is good that Jami now secured and a disgrace that this is not done, but it lost the core of the problem is not on. The core of the problem is the fascist Islam, the sick ideology of Allah and Mohammed as laid down in the Islamic Mein Kampf: the Koran. The texts from the Koran, leave little to the imagination.
Several Muslims Soera are called Jews, Christians, other believers and non-believers to oppress, persecute or murder, to save women and rape and violence is a worldwide Islamic state established. Soera programs on those calls and inciting Muslims to death and destruction.
Forbid that wretched book like Mein Kampf is banned! Give a signal to the robbers of Jami and other Islamists that the Koran in our country never inspired or excuse for violence may be used.
What I am ashamed for the Dutch politicians. Their naivety and sick seek the utopian moderate Islam, which only our country but to hell and damnation. What I am ashamed for all those in and outside the Cabinet and the Lower House of the Islamic invasion of the Netherlands refused to stop. What I am ashamed for the Dutch policy, which day after day from the over-representation of ethnic minorities in crime and crime and accepts no answer to.
The Hague is full of cowardly people. Frightened people who were born and cowardly coward will die. Find and promote the Dutch culture will be based on a Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition. Such a general pardon to liars and criminals. Those look the other way as homosexuals almost daily rammed into each other. That want to introduce Sharia mortgages.
With representatives of the Hamas terrorist in conversation going. That work for the dictatorial Moroccan king. Those extremists from the Muslim Brotherhood as a conversation partner. Allowing Muslim men refuse their sick woman to be treated by male doctors. This paint is to the interests of Dutch citizens and contribute to the transformation of the Netherlands in Nederabië as a province of the Islamic superstate Eurabië.
I have enough of Islam in the Netherlands: no more Muslim immigrants at. I got tired of the worship of Allah and Mohammed in the Netherlands: no more to mosque. I have enough of the Koran in the Netherlands: forbid that fascist book.
Enough is enough»
the other two links can eassely read by all...
yes Sami... you're waht you said you weren't... just like your false prophet...
Sami: ”no doubt civilized people for humanity cannot stand by such a book, which is why most Christians who eventually read this barbarism in the bible become apostates.”
Well, those people have the freedom to do so. But that is not the case in Islam. In Islam you don’t leave the religion because that would get you arrested, tortured to make you get back to Islam, and then killed if you keep refusing. I bet that if Islam would abolish that teaching of being killed for leaving the faith for one year, the Muslim population would shrink in half. It is because of that law that Muslims don’t consider to leave Islam. And those people you are referring to so happen to be the very people that would not consider Islam for a second either. So don’t act as though Islam is this great religion with a high moral standard.
“at least matthew you admit he called for it, and you seem to agree with it, lo and behold the lovely Christian standard, were for freedom of speech, yet we want to ban your text of 1.5 billion people, if we want to do that, we should start with your bible which has rape, murder, and cannabilism as well, not to mention incest, sex stories, u name it, the bible has it.”
It has those things in it to show the sinfulness of man. The Bible lays it all out there. But in your religion all committed sins are left out. Your book doesn’t mention the sins of the people supposedly because they are held in high esteem. That’s why you claim that you don’t need a mediator, because your holy book just denies the sins committed and goes "there is no sin", which is a worrying sign on the wall to me. All it is obsessed about is “hell” and “doom” and “punishment” whenever people have good reasons to reject it as divine revelation or Muhammad as a false prophet. As you failed to notice is that Wilders’ comment and hatred of the Qur’an is because it calls people to violence and is used as such. Therefore it’s a nuisance and should be banned. Until “moderates” like you (???) stand up to the fundamentalists that claim Qur’anic authority to kill infidels at will, then we will continue resisting Islam, the Qur’an and Muslims that claim that the book is harmless. You should get used to that.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8McIz0ejukg&feature=related david here you go, another link for you, a dutch person telling you what geert said in dutch, with english subs, it seems your the only one who wants to desperately cling onto this false notion that wilders wasnt generalizing and only refering to some people when its obvious that thats not the case, deal with the reality.
What Wilders said is significantly different than what you claimed he said. You said that he claimed that Muslims should be banned from Holland, which is bogus. He said “no more mosques” and “no more Muslim immigrants”, he didn’t say “all Muslims out” or anything that resembles that. Again an extreme overplay of the statements Wilders made.
“and just on a side note, the recent new mayor of rotterdam, the second most populated city in Holland is a Muslim, hurraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. :) :) :) :), thats just the icing on the cake.”
I hate to burst your bubble but because of this whole episode of Geert Wilders being prosecuted, the seats of his party the PVV in the Dutch Parliament HAVE BEEN RAISED FROM THE CURRENT 9 SEATS TO 20 SEATS. If Muslims keep this up, his party will be a one party cabinet! So don’t get too excited.
and after both nakdimons and fernando's long post my point has been proven right, he called for the Quran to be banned, thanks.
and after all of thoselong posts no one can tell me that the Bible does not contain rape, genocide, murder, incest, sex stories, etc etc, thanks.
:) so with all that said, continue the double standards. thanks.
Is it so hard to follow an argument and/or not using the "tu qouque"-fallacy?
Stories about rape, genocide, murder, incest and sex have nothing to do with what we are talking about.
In 2 Kings 3:27, a pagan named Mesha, King of Moab, sacrifices his firstborn.
The story is in the book. But I don't see why anyone would complain about the event being mentioned.
Sami said: "and after both nakdimons and fernando's long post my point has been proven right, he called for the Quran to be banned, thanks."
But you said that he called for all Muslims to be banned from the country. There's a big difference there.
One of the easiest ways to demonize someone is to misrepresent him, which is clearly what you're doing with Wilders. He says that the Qur'an should be banned because of the violence it contains, and you change his position so that he suddenly wants all Muslims expelled from Holland. If we hadn't called you out on this, you might have gone on to say that he advocates genocide.
Sami said: "and after both nakdimons and fernando's long post my point has been proven right, he called for the Quran to be banned, thanks."
That is NOT at all what you originally claimed, Sami (and you well know it).
You are backtracking because you made an over-reaching statement that you can't substantiate.
You should admit that your claim was a shade off of reality. It happens.
David, when he says im sick of Muslims worshiping Allah, and no more mosques, and no more Muslims comming in, my statement is not streching it all, he wants Muslims to be BANNED from and in the country, first stop Muslims comming in, then stop mosques, then ban the Quran, etc etc, you guys just dont want to put it all together, unlike you guys, i put it all together, and ill repeat it:
1- bar Muslims from entering
2- ban the Quran, which effectively ends Islam
3- ban mosques
do you guys fail to see the pattern, i stand by my comments, he wants to ban Muslims and end the Muslims in Holland, any person who is honest with themselves will see it by the pattern, and will see he is building up to an agenda, its so obvious even you guys know its true but you dont want to admit it because somehow you think it means defeat, i dont know why, this guy is a piece of trash and i dont understand why you wont simply admit it and get on with what were doing.
now let me go on further on what i earlier stated, geert wants to:
1- ban Muslims from comming
2- ban the Quran which is banning Islam- now, if the Quran is banned, what do you do with people who are found with a Quran? logically they will go to jail or will be prosecuted.
3- ban mosques, what happens when Muslims grow larger and need more moseques? oh well thats not our problem, immigrate out of here, you cant worship here. and hey, since the Quran has been banned, since Muslim immigrants have been banned, and since mosques have been banned, whats to stop the mosques from being closed done period? furthermore an integral part of the mosque in todays society is having Qurans in them, yet the Quran is banned, and in the mosque we recite the Quran, yet if the book is banned, then obviously its against the law to recite it in a positive way, effectively it is cutting the Muslim off from his religion as a whole.
so i completely stand by statement, this guy wants to ban Muslims, an end of Muslims in Holland, are you guys kidding me? DO YOU HONESTLY THINK IF SOMEONE ASKED HIM DO U WANT ISLAM AND MUSLIMS COMPLETELY OUT AND STOPPED, do you HONESTLY think he would not say no? common people! stop kidding yourselves, face the realities with this man, you all know im right this time, you know it!
No Sami... those are YOUR conclusions from your muslim preconceptions... you cannot say that they are the positions from mister Wilders... You know that... but you don't want to admit it... shameful... but then: what can be expected from a follower of Muhammad?
Sami,
i think that it is obvious the even when the EVIDENCE is clearly infront of David Wood and his fellow christians, they will refuse to admit it...
reminds me of a verse in THEIR 'Holy" book.. Mark 4:12
'They see clearly but don't perceive. They hear clearly but don't understand. They never return to me and are never forgiven.'"
Khayyam... one again: where, as Sami saide and tryiend to prove with three bogus links, has mister Wilders saide that he wanted all the muslims expelled frome Holand? Who'is the one who doesnt want to see? You cannot take any conclusions of someones intentiones frome wordes that may, or not, allow those conclusions... you simply cannot go inside one's head or hearte... if you coulde then your false Book coulde be used to proove that all muslims are what they say they aren't... one can make any sylogism from texts of the currupted Qur'an and, fromm there, find conclusions that any serious person would see that they cannot be true... an example?
Surah 15:32-33 shows that Allah wanted Iblis to worshippe people;
as Worshipping people is idolatry;
one must say that Allah defends iddolatry;
On the other hand idolatry is not wanted by Allah;
then we must conclude that Allah, your false god, is schyzophrenic as shown with "his" words deffending abrogation to deffende Muhammads narcizistic wills...
Stop talking, start acting
Isn't your freedom worth a stamp???
If Geert Wilders falls, then Freedom of speech is dead in Europe. We are launching an extensive International Action SITA including two possible texts ; one comparing Wilders and Winston Churchill and another Wilders and Charlie Chaplin:
http://sitamnesty.wordpress.com/2009/01/23/i-support-democrat-geert-winston-wilders-against-islamic-fascism-and-its-dhimmis (Winston Eng)
http://sitamnesty.wordpress.com/2009/01/23/i-support-democrat-geert-charlie-wilders-against-islamic-fascism (Charlie Eng)
To support Geert Wilders and our dearly acquired freedoms please participate to the 2 suggested actions and transmit this message to your friends owners of a website in order they publish it.
An other way to support Geert Wilders is to give some money. To donate: www.geertwilders.nl
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