Saturday, July 7, 2007

Submission

A Muslim woman prays: “The verdict that has killed my faith and love is in Your holy book. Faith in You, submission to You, feels like self-betrayal. Oh Allah, giver and taker of life, You admonish all who believe to turn towards You in order to attain bliss. I have done nothing my whole life but turn to You. And now that I pray for salvation, under my veil, You remain silent, like the grave I long for.”

This video is pretty intense. In a way, it serves as a double-criticism of Islam. Written by a former Muslim, the video is a condemnation of the treatment of women in the Muslim world. However, Theo van Gogh, the director of the film, was killed by a Muslim for his role in Submission, so the video is also a reminder of Islam’s inability to tolerate criticism.

Muhammad Bouyeri shot van Gogh numerous times, slashed his throat, and plunged a knife into his chest, all because of a video that was critical of Islam. However, let no one think that Bouyeri was simply a radical Muslim on the fringe of Islam, for the Prophet of Islam himself ordered his followers to kill those who criticized Islam through the arts. (For more on this, see “Muhammad’s Dead Poets’ Society.”)

In her book Infidel, Ayaan Hirsi Ali (who wrote the film) responds to her critics: “I am told that Submission is too aggressive a film. Its criticism of Islam is apparently too painful for Muslims to bear. Tell me, how much more painful is it to be these women, trapped in that cage?” (p. 350).

23 comments:

Um Yaquub said...

A young married woman recently wrote to me about the anguish she felt about being forced to remain in a very destructive marriage. Her point is that the Muslim elders in her community seem to want to "sweep it under the carpet" and not even acknowledge that she might have rights or something to say!

She asked me "Is it a challenge to speak to an outspoken Muslim woman?"

I begin to wonder if this might be true!

Mumtaz said...

Islams has many inabilities.
Today I want to talk about the females in Islam.
1. We MUST be at the mans beck and call at all times, Called Duties
2. We MUST be ready to surrender our selves at any time called love
3. We ARE sex slaves to them at their convenience called affection
4. We should only SPEAK when spoken to, that’s called respect
5. We have NO RIGHTS in any form, called security
6. We are OPPRESSED in various ways, this is called obedience
7. When we are BEATEN, its called discipline
8. When we have the last bits to eat, its called support

Need I continue!

I live in South Africa! All I can say is thank God for the Western Law that protects and takes care of their women despite of race, religion & creed.

Um Yaquub said...

So---why the insistence to force shari'a law on the Islamic communities in various parts of the West? It's clearly not welcome!

Bassam said...

You people need to learn how to differentiate between mockery/blasphemy and criticism.

There is a naked woman in there with Quranic verses tatooed all over her body. What kind of criticism is this? This is no critique but just offensive disapproval of Islam.

If you want to know how to critique the status of women in a particular scripture look at some of the articles here http://www.islamic-answers.com/women_in_the_bible and see how proper references are cited and opinions formulated in a critical manner.

Not going and painting a cross on a naked woman's body and saying that Jesus didn't die for you.

And Mumtaz you mention 8 points about Islam which are all false.

You talk about how you are proud of South Africa. Thats funny since South Africa is known to have reported very high rates of women getting raped and you guys have a serious AIDS issue. This is all from the 'respect' that the women get there. I have no clue what your proud of.

Bassam said...

I made a mistake saying that she was naked. Sorry.

Sunil said...

Bassam,

>> What kind of criticism is this? This is no critique but just offensive disapproval of Islam.

When I saw the video, I too felt that the point could have been made without writing the Quranic verses on the body. But then, people adopt different ways to make a point. (For example, recently, in my country a woman walked on the road wearing only undergarments, to protest an injustice done to her). In any case, even if one disapproves of the nature in which a point is made, there are saner and better ways of dealing with it than what Muhammad has shown by example (for example, the link that David has posted about 'dead poets') and being followed by followers of Muhammad to this day.

>> If you want to know how to critique the status of women in a particular scripture look at some of the articles here http://www.islamic-answers.com/women_in_the_bible

The site has topics such as that bible teaches "women are inferior to men" etc. None of the Christians interpret or agree to such interpretation (there may be cultural contexts and circumstances of ancient times where certain things were said). The final message/revelation or the ultimate message of 'how we ought to live' is loud and clear - which is that of equality and dignity. So, this is merely a matter of academic interest to understand what was said and why it was said. In case of Islam, the "final message" is the problem which is actually being followed to this day.

>> You talk about how you are proud of South Africa. Thats funny since South Africa is known to have reported very high rates of women getting raped and you guys have a serious AIDS issue. This is all from the 'respect' that the women get there. I have no clue what your proud of.

The rate of rape may have more to do with the ability of women to bravely report and get justice, than with actual incidence. In any case, there is a larger point - Try to compare your claimed 'ideal' you are showing with the best possible (which is the claim with respect to Jesus' life/message) rather than trying to go lower and lower down the moral ladder to find a near resemblance.

Bassam said...

there are saner and better ways of dealing with it than what Muhammad has shown by example (for example, the link that David has posted about 'dead poets') and being followed by followers of Muhammad to this day.

Almost all those people in David's article are referring were criminals who either attempted to kill the prophet or enticed others to fight him. Read this http://www.authenticsunnah.org/umar/dead_poets_rebuttal.htm. They deserves to be killed. Why dont you speak about the thousands whom the Prophet forgave? There is a time for justice and time for mercy.


The site has topics such as that bible teaches "women are inferior to men" etc. None of the Christians interpret or agree to such interpretation


Umm the article quotes Christian commentaries.

I see nothing cultural about this http://islamic-answers.com/women_are_the_source_of_men_s_unclean_state_ or this http://islamic-answers.com/how_does_the_bible_view_and_treat_women_during_their_menses__

If these stuff were not in your religion but in Islam you would jump to attack it. Admit it and be honest to yourself.


In case of Islam, the "final message" is the problem which is actually being followed to this day.


What 'final message' u talking about?


In any case, there is a larger point - Try to compare your claimed 'ideal' you are showing with the best possible (which is the claim with respect to Jesus' life/message) rather than trying to go lower and lower down the moral ladder to find a near resemblance.

Sorry, I didnt understand what you were trying to say here. Please clarify.

Kind Regards,

Bassam

Sunil said...

Bassam,

>> Almost all those people in David's article are referring were criminals who either attempted to kill the prophet or enticed others to fight him. There is a time for justice and time for mercy.

Let us, for the sake of argument, assume so. Can we then conclude that people should not be put to death for things like insulting Islam, insulting prophet, mockery etc? This will save a lot of lives if there is a basic general consensus on this (academic debates can go on parallely of how truly this stand represents the real Muhammad).

>> I see nothing cultural about this http://islamic-answers.com/women_are_the_source_of_men_s_unclean_state_ or this http://islamic-answers.com/how_does_the_bible_view_and_treat_women

The title of the first article says "The book of Job views women as the source of men's unclean state". When the book of Job says "How then can man be justified with God?" or "What is man, that he should be clean?", the word man is used in the sense of all humanity and not male gender.
The second article is titled "How does the Bible view and treat women during their menses". And it refers to the ceremonial/ritual uncleanness during menses. In Leviticus, even a bodily discharge (in both men and women) for example is considered/described as ceremonially unclean.

>> If these stuff were not in your religion but in Islam you would jump to attack it. Admit it and be honest to yourself.

Whatever is questionable should be questioned (whether it is Bible or Quran). That is why critique (even if it takes the form of hostile critique, insult, mockery etc) is so important and it does not make sense to kill people for that.


>> Sorry, I didnt understand what you were trying to say here. Please clarify.

When mumtaz was pointing to issues with Islam's dealing with women, you responded by showing rape in South Africa. How valid is that comparison? If Islam is allegedly representing the highest ideal possible, you should compare it with the other claims of ideal way of life (like the claim with respect to Jesus' life/message is that it is the highest moral/ philosophical representation) - instead of comparing with rape (if that is what you are doing).

Bassam said...

Can we then conclude that people should not be put to death for things like insulting Islam, insulting prophet, mockery etc?

You love pushing this point forth in many of your posts. Sunil, those poets such as Kab ibn Al Ashraf were killed for using their insults to entice people to fight against Islam.


That is why critique (even if it takes the form of hostile critique, insult, mockery etc)


I can't believe you are saying this. Are you actually saying that people have a right to mock and insult other people's faiths?

Sunil, you keep talking about mockery and critique as if they are the same thing. or that mockery is a valid form of critique. A critique is a serious examination or evaluation of something. Islam allows CRITIQUE. Islam does not allow BLASPHEMY (insulting with obscene words or mockery is an insult to God).

Mockery is not serious or critical. Its just plain blasphemy. The Gospels say that one whos BLASPHEMES the Holy Spirit is basically hopeless. Not the one who critiques. So there is a difference.

You seem to not understand the seriousness of who God is. How insignificant we are to God and how serious of a crime it is for someone to insult God (insulting messengers of God or laws laid down by God is basically insulting God). The reason why you find this law unreasonable is because you don't believe Islam is true.

So Sunil, DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN MOCKERY/BLASPHEMY AND CRITIQUE. Islam open mindedly welcomes critical/objective views and a useful dialogue. Not EMOTIONAL/SARCASTIC/OFFENSIVE insults. Blasphemies such as this would call for death as it did in the Old Testament. Who do these insignificant creatures compared to God think they are talking like that about the Creator of the Universe?


When mumtaz was pointing to issues with Islam's dealing with women, you responded by showing rape in South Africa. How valid is that comparison? If Islam is allegedly representing the highest ideal possible, you should compare it with the other claims of ideal way of life (like the claim with respect to Jesus' life/message is that it is the highest moral/ philosophical representation) - instead of comparing with rape (if that is what you are doing).


Umm no I wasn't. I simply stated that her arguments were false and unproven and that she has nothing to be proud about Western law.

As for Jesus' life being of highest moral representation... That is false. I can find shortcomings of Jesus' behaviour in the Gospels. I read the gospel once and it is nothing WOOOOW big of a deal. Also, the Jesus of the Bible offers no PRACTICAL solutions to world problems just as Islam does. Only offers theoritical/idealistic values that everyone already knows about.

Jesus of the Bible is definately no standard, Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is the ultimate standard. His life could be related by anyone. He was an orphan, buried 5 of his own children, lost his loving wife, uncles, friends etc. and remained patient all this time. Forgave people when he had the ability to take revenge but chose not to do so for his mercy. He implemented justice on criminals when it was necessary in order to ensure the security of his people and the upliftment of the religion of God. He was a husband, friend, leader, military commander, business man, etc......

Many things we can related to this man for he was a PRACTICAL person and not idealistic.

Sunil, stop being subjective/emotional. Follow facts/evidence and not what your subjective/limited logic tells you.

Why can't David Wood start a post about 'evidence for Christianity' and see if Christians can actually provide facts for their religion besides emotions, emotions, emotions.

By the way your reply to the women in the Bible arguments were weak so don't think that you addressed anything.

Kind Regards,

Bassam

Mumtaz said...

Bassam,

(mockery/blasphemy and criticism)
The men of Islam that claim to lead, practise, preach and follow the right path can be put into this category. What is said is not what is practised.

(8 points are all false)
Muslim men can justify pelting women in public, killing women for disgracing the family name and burning the faces with acid when being refused. Properly the same way you can justify my 8 points amongs many more. I AM LIVING PROOF. I challenge you to proof me wrong.

(Proud of South Africa. Rape & aids)
What has this to do with the actual issue at hand?
This is all over the World including Islamic countries! It seems to me you are clueless. In Islamic countries, women will not dare to talk.

Being Proudly South African, we do have freedom of speech.

In comparing my rights religiously and in Western Law. I will opt for the Western Law.

Sunil,
You seem to be more objective.
Women are becoming brave and slowly releasing themselves from the oppression we were forced to endure.

Bassam said...

Bassam,

(mockery/blasphemy and criticism)

The men of Islam that claim to lead, practise, preach and follow the right path can be put into this category. What is said is not what is practised.


Didn't understand what you are trying to say here.


(8 points are all false)
Muslim men can justify pelting women in public

We stone adulterers if there is evidence of confession or four witnesses for both MEN AND WOMEN. So no discrimination there.


killing women for disgracing the family name and burning the faces with acid when being refused.

Honor killing is condemned in Islam even though the Biblical God issued a law similar to it in Leviticus 21:9.


Properly the same way you can justify my 8 points amongs many more. I AM LIVING PROOF. I challenge you to proof me wrong.

Maybe your English is poor and that is why your not making much sense when you speak. Either way, you haven't proved that Islam condones those 8 points.

(Proud of South Africa. Rape & aids)
What has this to do with the actual issue at hand?
This is all over the World including Islamic countries! It seems to me you are clueless. In Islamic countries, women will not dare to talk.

You have to understand that Western Law easies and facilitates these kind of things to occur. Allowing women to dress up immodestly and acting shamelessly lures men to rape them and promotes fornication and adultery which can result in Aids. If these things occur in Muslim countries then its because they got influenced from the West and not from Islamic law. I am not talking about the people but talking about the governing system.


Regards,
Bassam

Mumtaz said...

Bassam,

“Practise what you preach” The quraan states “equality and fairness etc to women”. It’s all over the internet, but not practised!

(MEN)
I have never heard or read of men being pelted. I have been told that this is allowed!

(POOR ENGLISH)
You will achieve nothing from insults. Since you are referring to my poor English – proof again of the MEN that oppress women.

(HAVE TO)
I don’t HAVE TO anything. I live in a free country with choices.

(SHAMELESSLY LURES MEN TO RAPE)
Again – blaming women for your actions. You cannot take responsibility for your own actions.
These things do happen in Muslim countries. Muslim women are so oppressed in these countries they are probably illiterate.

Apologies that my English does not meet your standards. You were fortunate to get education. We were forced to leave school and were married off to old men we didn’t know.

Um Yaquub said...

Bassam, you asked, "Are you actually saying that people have a right to mock and insult other people's faiths?"

Are people supposed to defend God? I agree that it is unwise (and worse) to mock and insult a faith that might actually be the true one. In that case, a person has mocked and insulted God! Very, very stupid.

But--are we supposed to intervene
when adults mock and blaspheme? Is that the sort of rigid society that you prefer?

I hate blasphemy and flinch when I overhear people cursing. I also fear the absence of free speech and free thinking!
Do you really suggest a world where every idle remark is punished and everyone is afraid?

Bassam said...

Are people supposed to defend God?

God has established laws for His name to not be blasphemed. It does not mean that He NEEDS it just as He does not NEED us to worship Him. Yet WE still need to worship Him.


I agree that it is unwise (and worse) to mock and insult a faith that might actually be the true one. In that case, a person has mocked and insulted God! Very, very stupid.

Great you said that. But even if the religion is false you still have no right to mock it. You can't mock things which are sensitive to people. Imagine someone publicly mocking your mother? How would that make you feel? Well both Islam and Christianity teach that religion should be more important to you than your own family so imagine how much worse blaspheming someones religion is? Especially mocking the true religion laid down by CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE. People look at the sin but not at who they are sinning against.

But--are we supposed to intervene
when adults mock and blaspheme? Is that the sort of rigid society that you prefer?


If they do it consciously and continously and influence others then yes.

I hate blasphemy and flinch when I overhear people cursing. I also fear the absence of free speech and free thinking!

To not mock and blaspheme doesn't meant that there is no free speech and free thinking. You can feel free to question Islam and put forth valid arguments in an objective and critical manner. JUST DON'T MOCK OR BLASPHEME.

Plus there is nothing called 'free speech'. Can I openly deny the holocaust in America or Europe? Can I provide secrets of the county to another country? There is no country in the world that has ultimate 'free speech'. It is always limited and mocking God and blasphemy should definately be included in those limitations.

Do you really suggest a world where every idle remark is punished and everyone is afraid?

They don't have to be afraid. Just simply don't mock God in public where others can hear you and find out. Do it to yourself if you want to. We are not asking people to be afraid but to have some manners and respect for others.

Regards,
Bassam

Martyr said...

The man who made this film was murdered by a muslim becasue he made it. Is there any greator testimony then that for the relegion of peace?

agdrums said...

I am reading "Infidel" and have read the comments here and on other sites. I wonder why any god, be he Allah, Jesus or Jaweh needs me or anyone to defend him. It seems Allah is the weakest and most vain of all the religions gods. He needs constant defense and honor from not only his followers but all people. I think god should be ok without my defense, he's god after all, why does he need so much from us? It's not as if he will cease to exist if I don't prostrate 5 times a day and remind him how great he is. Or will he?

Jay said...

"Allowing women to dress up immodestly and acting shamelessly lures men to rape them"

I thought Islam thought that everyone is responsible for their own actions!

I think this statement says volumes about the Islamic attitude towards women (if your view really does represent the Islamic attitude)- if women dress immodestly they deserve to be raped. Now I think I understand why Mukhtar Mai was gandgraped in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. When you have twisted ideas about this is the kind of justice that results.

Oh and btw, your comments about HIV AIDS in South Africa - under reporting in Muslim countries prevents there being accurate numbers on infection rates - that doesn't mean that a very real problem exists. One of the highest rates of infection int he world right now is in Indonesia - another Muslim country.

justinhunt said...

May I ask, why do people hide behind the guise of religion?
If you believe in God or Allah, You believe the Entity you serve is Supreme, All Powerful. It is not your 'Religion' that is supreme or all powerful. Humans are not higher than God or Allah, why do humans believe that the fate of God or Allah is in a humans hand??
You are all arguing amongst yourselves about your own actions, shortcomings and offenses against one another.. Do you love the one you serve or do you love fighting

Mayhem said...

I am absolutely disgusted with Basaams attitude. I think Islam is the major problem this world has. How dare any religion teach it is okay to kill anyone because they disagree with a shitty God? You people follow the Abrahamic God of the Old Testament. It is just ridiculous that people in the 21st century are so backward. Why should a woman be beaten by her husband? That's called spousal abuse. Why should a woman who is beaten or raped be rejected by her family? That is ludicrous - it's abhorrent. If a man rapes a woman, it's the woman's fault? Oh come on, that is terrible. Bassam, if you were to stand in front of me start naked, I would not be swayed to have sex with you. Rape is all about abuse of power, and has nothing to do with sexuality. It is about time you idiots learned to behave, instead of still living in the "days of the prophet". You are a very poor excuse for a human being.

cmclvr said...

Islam is a criminal cult started by an evil, sick and pervert man for the express purpose of looting, killing, plundering, and raping of innocent and hard working people conveniently called as unbelievers. Islamic history is just that. The evil and dirty man took to a life of crime as a form of revenge when the intelligent Jews and Christians refused to accept a charlatan as a prophet. Koran is the Mafia manual that contains all the rules and rituals to raise an Army of ruthless criminals ready to kill the unbelievers for gains. One of the main requirements of a killer Army is to keep the people restless, agitated and angry. The best way to keep men as beasts is by keeping them sexually repressed as well as to allow them to treat women worst than animals. The master criminal precisely did that. The Christ believing West cannot understand the mind set of criminally debased and brainwashed followers of Islam. One man took courage to bring light to these criminals who are basically victims of satanic ideals and paid penalty with his life. As long as the Mafia manual is regarded as word of God, it is impossible to reform Islam in to an acceptable level. The chances are remote. Spreading of the Gospel can only reach a small band of wealthy and educated people. Majority of Muslims remain under the tight control of Mullahs and radicals who will never allow peaceful Muslims to assimilate and integrate to mainstream life. The civilized world must declare Islam as a criminal cult and stop giving it the status of a religion. Those who can adopt will stay back, leave it or change religion and the rest will be forced to return to their Islamic hell hole.

Hanss said...

@ cmclvr

Radical thoughts, but not untrue.

islam is a curse and satanic, but also a challenge and the only way to fight this satanic curse is the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Biblical truth.

Jesus came into this satanic world to fight the devil and He overcame.

Step into His footsteps and be victorious for the sake of many lost (muslim) souls.

Hanss said...

By the way: Theo van Gogh was killed because he'd called allah a pig and not because of his film "Submission".

That's what his killer had admitted.

mdr22315live said...

We are fully aware of why he was murdered. To be a muslim one must be deceitful as Islam is the eptiome' of deceit.